Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Katzpur]

Answering on impulse, I don't know if Satan would qualify as an "angel" as LDS use that term. But we certainly believe he was an influential spirit in the pre-existence and is, indeed, fallen.

I'm basing my response on Revelation 12:7-9, which states, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[athanasius]

Thank you both(Katzpur,nutshell) for your explanations. I am a little confused. Was Satan viewed as a angel or just a spirit of man? What was his nature? Was it angelic and now is demonic?

 

[FFH]

The "Proclamation on the Family" is an official statement of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twleve. It refers to heavenly parents. I consider it to be doctrine.

Good point.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you both(Katzpur,nutshell) for your explanations. I am a little confused. Was Satan viewed as a angel or just a spirit of man? What was his nature? Was it angelic and now is demonic?

In LDS theology, angels are merely sons and daughters of God who are in various stages of progression. They may be men and women who have not yet left God's presence to obtain physical bodies (as Michael was at the time of his great battle in Heaven with Lucifer), or they may be men and women who have lived, died and been resurrected (as Moroni was when he gave the golden plates to Joseph Smith). Since we believe that we all began our existance as spirit beings who lived in our Father's presence, the term "angel" could be applied to all of us. When Revelation describes the war fought in Heaven, it says that Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels. We believe that we (all of humanity) were those angels who fought against Lucifer.

 

[athanasius]

In LDS theology, angels are merely sons and daughters of God who are in various stages of progression. They may be men and women who have not yet left God's presence to obtain physical bodies (as Michael was at the time of his great battle in Heaven with Lucifer), or they may be men and women who have lived, died and been resurrected (as Moroni was when he gave the golden plates to Joseph Smith. Since we believe that we all began our existance as spirit beings who lived in our Father's presence, the term "angel" could be applied to all of us. When Revelation describes the war fought in Heaven, it says that Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels. We believe that we (all of humanity) were those angels who fought against Lucifer.

Thanks you for the clarification. That is interesting. I have never knew that you guys believed that.

 

[FFH]

Thank you both(Katzpur,nutshell) for your explanations. I am a little confused. Was Satan viewed as a angel or just a spirit of man?

He is our literal human spirit brother.

What was his nature?

Our spirit brother and spirit son of God (as we all are) who rebelled against God's plan, which was to come to earth, be tested as to our level of obedience to God's principles and ordinaces, and eventually be redeemed by our elder spirit brother Jesus Christ.

Satan wanted Christ's position, but was not willing to follow God's plan. He wanted the glory but without the pain, I suppose. He wasn't willing to follow God's plan. Now he's nothing but a self centered, hateful, jealous, murderous individual.

Was it angelic and now is demonic?

Yes

 

[nutshell]

I'm basing my response on Revelation 12:7-9, which states, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Indeed, that refers to Lucifer who became the Devil/Satan.

 

[Scott C.]

The Holy Ghost is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose but are three seperate beings. Each has a different role to play in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our ruler. Jesus Christ is our savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer of all truth.

I like what you said in the part I quoted above. The first part, which I did not quote, is more tentative.

How did I do in my explanation of the Trinity per Catholic doctrine?

 

[Francine]

How did I do in my explanation of the Trinity per Catholic doctrine?

I did not find any intractably objectionable statements, but we must break it off right there. All the air in my Mormonism interest balloon has gone rushing out.

 

[Sola'lor]

Question: If something is not official doctrine, does that make the negation true? In other words, if it is not official LDS doctrine that the Heavenly Father was married to Mary, then is it official LDS doctrine that the Heavenly Father was NOT married to Mary? Because a dialogue cannot proceed until both parties agree on basic principles.

No. If something is not official doctrine it simply means we don't know. It's open to personal opinion and interpretation. So was God married to Mary? We don't know. It's up to whatever you want to believe.

I don't believe that He was. I don't believe there was any physical relationship between God and Mary.

As to the family proclamation, I think it is doctrine. It is an official proclamation from the first presidency. It isn't scripture but it is doctrine. Also I believe the Huymn book is doctrinal as well and considerd scripture. It discusses this in the introduction to the hymn book but I don't have one with me so I can't say for sure.

Was Lucifer an angel? I think angel and spirit can be used pretty much interchangably. They both basically refer to a spirit.

 

[nutshell]

I did not find any intractably objectionable statements, but we must break it off right there. All the air in my Mormonism interest balloon has gone rushing out.

If I had a dollar for every time you made a comment like this....

 

[Katzpur]

As to the family proclamation, I think it is doctrine. It is an official proclamation from the first presidency. It isn't scripture but it is doctrine.

I would say that if a statement is issued by the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, it could safely be said to be doctrinal. It's when the individual members of either the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twleve make statements that cannot be supported by the scriptures that we have to assume that they are merely stating their own personal interpretation of doctrine, which may or may not be correct.

Also I believe the Huymn book is doctrinal as well and considerd scripture. It discusses this in the introduction to the hymn book but I don't have one with me so I can't say for sure.

I couldn't find anything like that in the hymn book, Sola. In my opinion, the hymn book is not doctrinal. On the other hand, I don't think anything would be included in it that went counter to doctrine.

 

[Francine]

If I had a dollar for every time you made a comment like this....

You specifically get nothing more from me.

 

[nutshell]

You specifically get nothing more from me.

That's OK, you've already made me rich.

 

[roli]

Yes. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (Doctrine & Covenants:130:22)

Does it bother you that it contradicts the bible's teaching on this subject of what form God is.

We have no official doctrine on anything God was doing prior to the creation of our universe. John 5:19 states, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." This can be interpreted as saying that Jesus patterned His own mortal existance after His Father's, but I would not argue that it's a conclusive statement on God's existance prior to "the beginning" as described in Genesis.

Are you saying, Jesus is patterning his mortal existence after God's mortal existence.
That is not the context or biblical interpretation that he was referring to ,but I guess if it fits your teaching ..!
Maybe he was showing his complete submission to God,as Jesus did give up glory to come to earth and humbled himself unto God as a man.
What do you think Jesus did by doing that, he therfore surrendered his position over to God and said he can therefore do nothing but what he sees his father doing.
Jesus is saying I don't do anything on my own ,but only my father's will.

In the document entitled, "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles issued statement which says, "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents." We do believe that God is not alone in Heaven, but that He has a female counterpart. It won't do you any good to ask any questions about Her, though, since this one statement is all we have been given.

That's convenient grounds to build a doctrine on.
Are you saying every person in the world has heavenly parents, prior to salvation.
I mean to speculate about something as there being a female counterpart and then dismissing it as just something we have been given, but not able to discuss......
The fact is a whole doctrine has arrived from that, regarding Jesus and Lucifer being brothers and us all being spiritual brothers and sisters before time
I guess that is those extra revelations that are only privy to the Mormons

Roli - Did he have, produce, procreate Jesus through intercourse?[/quote}

No.

Then how the spirit children, you must have an idea.
Are you saying there has never been any teaching on this subject in your history.

Jesus was the firstborn of our Father in Heaven's spirit children. Unlike any of the rest of us, including Lucifer, Jesus was perfect in the beginning. He had all of the divine qualities His Father had. He also had a multitude of spirit siblings, among them, each one of us and Lucifer. We continue to be God's children today. Lucifer, on the other hand, lost that right when he rebelled against his Father.

Jesus had spirit siblings......where is that in scripture.
What is "Heaven's spirit children", could you explain.
Men in the beginning walked with God ,had communion and fellowship with God, they were in relationship with God after he made man.
Why would scripture not speak of man already being created but describe man being created from the dust and the spirit of God being breathed into him and him becoming a living soul
Lucifer as well was a perfect creation ,at least according to scripture ,until iniquity was found in him
WOW!! I guess your not really interested in what the bible says about who Jesus was in the beginning and that there were no spirit children and what "firstborn" actually means.
I guess your philosophy is you have the new revelation from LDS men, even though it contradicts scripture and certainly does not add to it

 

[FFH]

The skin of blackness which came upon the Lamaninites was as "flint". Have you ever seen a flint stone, it's black, not like any South American or Native American skin color. My guess is that their skin was lightened over the years as the curse was lifted.

Click on image for more info

Flint

2 Nephi. 5: 21
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
__________________

 

[roli]

Are you going to keep asking the same questions over and over or start accepting the fact you've been answered? I'll do it one more time so I don't have to listen to you anymore (in regards to this topic).

There is NOTHING in the canon that says God has spirit sex or actual physical intercourse with the VIRGIN Mary

.
What are you referring to when you say canon, I know the bible is canon, but are you referring to some other book

 

[roli]

Nice, was thinking of doing the same thing. It's amazing how distorted this simple scripture can become. Really can it be any clearer than this?, no need for any further revelation, it's pretty straight forward.

If you only used scripture to verify your belief and promote your doctrine it would be something, but your view of the bible is that it is incomplete and has not been interpreted properly.

 

[FFH]

If you only used scripture to verify your belief and promote your doctrine it would be something, but your view of the bible is that it is incomplete and has not been interpreted properly.

You're right, the Joseph Smith inspired version is different.

It should read as follows. The King James has many missing passages and errors, but is still over 90 percent intact.

Joseph Smith Inspired Version

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God.

Luke 1:31 And behold, thou shalt conceive, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Jesus.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David;

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel; How can this be?

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, Of the Holy Ghost, and the power of the Highest. Therefore also, that holy child that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:36 And behold, thy cousin Elizabeth, she hath also conceived a son, in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who is called barren.

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing can be impossible.


King James

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the bSon of God.

 

[McBell]

Roli,
I cannot help but wonder why you are thus far ignoring my question.

Do YOU believe that God was married to Mary?
If not then it brings up an interesting question of jesus being allowed to enter into a church. Deu 23:2