Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Sola'lor]

That depends on what you call "your bible" and what you call, very much.


That depends on what you call scripture and what you call most.

I what I find in many passages of LDS literature is more of a "cut and paste" from original scirpture,like someone else said recently, than it is revelation

I don't think there as close as you..... like to think.

If it was just marriage that was the central theme of debate, well..., I could maybe say we have different views and you may still be what christ defines as Christian.

But when you claim Christ and Lucifer are brothers,...you are saying Jesus is equal in relationship to lucifer ,but different in rank and that Christ was a created being.

That is just one subject that goes against everything Christ and Christian, we are'nt talking about God being like us,we become like gods, spirit mothers, celestial marriages in heaven,spirit babies,the bible not being the full truth, baptism for the dead, which Paul never endorsed,salvation found only through Joe Smith,................and our bibles are alike, are you serious.

This is not even debateable.
Do you even know what criteria that scripture was canonized by.
I guess it does'nt matter if you really believe yours was from God because one man told one man and they told men and so on & so on...,regardless of their opposing views to biblical literature.

We use the King James version of the Bible and none of our beliefs condradict it. I believe all those doctrinal things contained in the Bible. What version of the Bible do you use?

 

[Bishka]

That depends on what you call "your bible" and what you call, very much.

The Old and the New Testament in the King James Version.

Yourself?

I what I find in many passages of LDS literature is more of a "cut and paste" from original scirpture,like someone else said recently, than it is revelation

Have you actually read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover and studied it deeply?

But when you claim Christ and Lucifer are brothers,...you are saying Jesus is equal in relationship to lucifer

Really now? I've been in the Church a long time and we've never said Jesus is in equal relationship to Lucifer. Point out specifics in the scripture.

That is just one subject that goes against everything Christ and Christian, we are'nt talking about God being like us,we become like gods, spirit mothers, celestial marriages in heavenpirit babies,the bible not being the full truth, baptism for the dead, which Paul never endorsed

Some of this is true, some of it isn't. If you are going to claim all this you need to point out in our doctrine where it says it.

salvation found only through Joe Smith,............

Wrong again. Salvation is only found through the saving grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We are more like you then you want to think.

.....and our bibles are alike, are you serious.

Let's see, pick several scriptures and we will compare our Bibles. I'm sure they are alike if you have a KJV edition.

This is not even debateable.

You seem to think it is as you keep debating it.

Do you even know what criteria that scripture was canonized by.

I do, do you?

regardless of their opposing views to biblical literature.

1. Prove our "opposing view to biblical literature"

2. So the Bible is just literature now? And all this time I thought it was divine revelation.

 

[roli]

My Bible and your Bible are very much alike.

Ok,but
You may speak of having a KJV ,but it becomes apparent that writings of Smith superseded scripture and it was considered incomprehensive when compared with Mormon doctrine and is basically non authoritive.
This is not about having same bibles ,why would we even be here if that were the case, this is about altering sound doctrine, creating new doctrine.

Joseph Smith claimed: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was more correct than any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.194).
An official and widely read LDS publication reads: "Men can get nearer to the Lord, can have more of the spirit of conversion and conformity in their hearts...can gain a better understanding of the doctrines of salvation through the Book of Mormon than they can through the Bible...there will be more people saved in the kingdom of God - ten thousand times over - because of the Book of Mormon than there will be because of the Bible" (The Ensign, November 1984, p. 7).

I'm sure the bibles are pretty close, if the KJV in your hands is the same one I have.
Unless you have a version of the KJV that has been revamped like the JW's bible,which they call the New World Translation
If this was about interpretation only that is one thing ,but we are talking about something totally different here.
I think there is a popular opinion amongst Christians, theologians and greek and hebrew scholars across the board that say much of Mormon doctrine contradicts the judeo christian teaching, this is'nt just me.
It's easy to say our bibles are the same and they may be ,but the fact is most of your doctrine is built from and taught out of the Book of Mormon among other books.

Please tell me in a paragraph what the steps of salvation are to LDS.
Without side stepping around, present it in it's LDS entirety,as if your be tested on it from your elders, here's a kick start.
1

The Book of Mormon says of salvation: "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).

2 The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

3

Joseph Fielding Smith explains what that last phrase means: "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).[/QUOTE]

4

James Talmage explains: "...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James Talmage, in

A Study of the Articles of Faith).

Please don't bring in what we born again Christians already know from scirpture, we both know there is so much more that is taught in your secret books regarding this subject that is never brought out,open up what you call the revealed truth which is found in your other books and show us what they have to say about salvation regarding the indivdual and the dead.

 

[nutshell]

roli, we don't obey the law to be saved, we obey the law because we're saved.

 

[Sola'lor]

Ok,but
You may speak of having a KJV ,but it becomes apparent that writings of Smith superseded scripture and it was considered incomprehensive when compared with Mormon doctrine and is basically non authoritive.
This is not about having same bibles ,why would we even be here if that were the case, this is about altering sound doctrine, creating new doctrine.

Joseph Smith claimed: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was more correct than any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.194).
An official and widely read LDS publication reads: "Men can get nearer to the Lord, can have more of the spirit of conversion and conformity in their hearts...can gain a better understanding of the doctrines of salvation through the Book of Mormon than they can through the Bible...there will be more people saved in the kingdom of God - ten thousand times over - because of the Book of Mormon than there will be because of the Bible" (The Ensign, November 1984, p. 7).

I'm sure the bibles are pretty close, if the KJV in your hands is the same one I have.
Unless you have a version of the KJV that has been revamped like the JW's bible,which they call the New World Translation
If this was about interpretation only that is one thing ,but we are talking about something totally different here.
I think there is a popular opinion amongst Christians, theologians and greek and hebrew scholars across the board that say much of Mormon doctrine contradicts the judeo christian teaching, this is'nt just me.
It's easy to say our bibles are the same and they may be ,but the fact is most of your doctrine is built from and taught out of the Book of Mormon among other books.

You're right this isn't about interpretation. It's about translation. Those phrases you quote about can be said to be true because the Book of Mormon has gone through much fewer translations than the bible. THe Bible has been through enumerable tanslations and rearangements. Each time a person translated a book a small bit of the original intent was lost. Some doctrines were removed to fit with the views f the people assembling the bible. Some books were even excluded. Through out time as the bible became what it is things were changed or lost. I'm not talking about major changes, just small ones. When translating or transcribing one small error can change the meaning of a passage. The Book of Mormon is much more perfect because it was translated directly from the source in one translation. It isn't perfect, obviously, but it is more perfect. The doctrines haven't gone through translations and changes like the Bible has. This is why we say, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

Please tell me in a paragraph what the steps of salvation are to LDS.
Without side stepping around, present it in it's LDS entirety,as if your be tested on it from your elders, here's a kick start.
1

3

Joseph Fielding Smith explains what that last phrase means: "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).[/QUOTE]

4 [/u]

Please don't bring in what we born again Christians already know from scirpture, we both know there is so much more that is taught in your secret books regarding this subject that is never brought out,open up what you call the revealed truth which is found in your other books and show us what they have to say about salvation regarding the indivdual and the dead.

Ok first I think it is important to establish some ground work. To LDS people(at least to me anyway) salvation means two things. Firstly is means being saved and going to heaven. Secondly it means being allowed to go to heaven, meaning the Celestial Kingdom. There are three degrees of glory in heaven Telestial, Terrastrial, and Celestial.

As far as the first definition of salvation we believe that all but a few people will be saved. Everybody but a very small number will be allowed to go to heaven regardless of their actions or if they believe in Christ.

Now the second definition fo salvation is where the works comes in. The Lowest degree is the Telestial. This is where people who don't accept Christ in this life or the Spirit world will go. ONly the Holy Ghost has presence here. There is no reason for Christ or God the Father to be here since these people don't bvelieve in them. But this degree is far better than anything here on Earth.

The Second degree is the Terrestrial. This degree is for people who have accepted Christ but haven't done the neccesary ordinances(or works) in this life or the Sprirt world.

The Third degree is the Celestial. This is for all those who have accepted Christ, done the ordinances, and remained faithful. In the Celestial Kingdom there are again three degrees. The highest degree is where we recieve the blessing of exaltation.

So we believe in both. We can be saved(go to heaven) regardless of what we do. But we also believe that we most do the proper ordinances and live faithfully to be saved(go to the Celestial Kingdom).

So with that established I will go ahead and list those things we need to do in order to recieve salvation(highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom).

1. We need to have faith in Jesus Chirst.
2. We need to repent of our sins. Repentance is a life long process that is never completed in this life. Repentance is both an attitude and a process.
3. We need to be baptized. Without the correct authority a baptism isn't recognized as baptism.
4. We need to recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now simply experienbce the Holy Ghost but be blessed to have the Holy Ghost with us as a constant companion.
5. Recieve the endowment and make covenants inside the Temple.
6. Be married and sealed in the Temple.
7. Remain faithful to our covenants live all the above steps to the best we can throughout our lives.

I think that's all of the steps. If I missed any the other LDs will probably correct me. So what we do in this life determine where we go in heaven. They don't determine whether or not we are saved(there are exceptions) but they do determine where we go in Heaven.

Hopefully that explains some things. I didn't go into alot of detail using scriptures and stuff but it gives the jist of it.

 

[Scott C.]

I think that's all of the steps. If I missed any the other LDs will probably correct me. So what we do in this life determine where we go in heaven. They don't determine whether or not we are saved(there are exceptions) but they do determine where we go in Heaven.

I would add something that I'm sure Sola'lor will agree with. While he did not explicitely say so in his list of requirements for exaltation, implied in the list is that without the saving grace of Christ, none of this is possible. We must do all we can to repent and be obedient and have the right heart. When we do so, the grace of God is sufficient to make up our deficit and grant us entry into the presence of God.

 

[Bishka]

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.194).
(The Ensign, November 1984, p. 7).
(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).

Do you not get it?

None of what you quoted is actual doctrine.

Nice try, but you are wrong, again.

secret books regarding this subject that is never brought out.

Secret books? Darling, I've been a member of my Church for twenty-two years and attended the temple. Would you care to explain what "secret books" you are talking about?

Honestly, you sad attempt at slandering us is beginning to get a bit humorous.

Now, if you were actual quote and discuss doctrine, we might be going somewhere, but as it seems you cannot even grasp the concept of what is doctrine is there really a point in continuing this discussion with you?

 

[kadzbiz]

I don't know if this has already been asked, but I watched a doco on Mormons last night and it was stated that Missouri is believed to be the actual place of the Garden of Eden. Is that a true Mormon belief?

 

[TrueBlue2]

I don't know if this has already been asked, but I watched a doco on Mormons last night and it was stated that Missouri is believed to be the actual place of the Garden of Eden. Is that a true Mormon belief?

In short the answer is "yes" though evidence is somewhat scarce in the official canon. There is an area in Missouri that the prophet Joseph Smith named Adam-ondi-ahman (the place where Adam dwelt), and members of the church like to visit some of those sites even today.

 

[kadzbiz]

In short the answer is "yes" though evidence is somewhat scarce in the official canon. There is an area in Missouri that the prophet Joseph Smith named Adam-ondi-ahman (the place where Adam dwelt), and members of the church like to visit some of those sites even today.

You say the evidence is scarce. What evidence is there at all?

Another question I'd like to ask is, why did Smith write more than one account of his visitation, 3 I believe it was stated on the TV doco, and each was more detailed than the previous one even though they were each written so much later than the first?

 

[TrueBlue2]

You say the evidence is scarce. What evidence is there at all?

Another question I'd like to ask is, why did Smith write more than one account of his visitation, 3 I believe it was stated on the TV doco, and each was more detailed than the previous one even though they were each written so much later than the first?

I could quote two or three scriptures from the Doctrine & Covenants (modern revelations received by Joseph Smith that mostly concerns governance of the Restored church of Christ); or I could quote a paragraph or two from Joseph Smith himself, but I'm not sure how convincing that would be for you. I'm not sure what to say about the second question since Joseph Smith is not here to answer for himself. I may review my own personal journal sometime after I have written an entry, and wished that I had added more detail to explain myself better. Others may have something to add here.

 

[Evandr]

"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." -- Master Je Tzu

President Hinckley, as all the prophets that have gone before him, is the kindest and humblest individual you will ever have the pleasure of meeting should it be your great fortune to do so. He is also a valiant servant of God.

 

[Katzpur]

Another question I'd like to ask is, why did Smith write more than one account of his visitation, 3 I believe it was stated on the TV doco, and each was more detailed than the previous one even though they were each written so much later than the first?

I'm just going to direct you to an article that should answer this question. I hope that's okay. It's a fairly long article, but you will see a heading, "The First VIsion" about half-way through the article. The material from that point on through the end is pertinent to your question.

Revised or Unaltered? Joseph Smith's Foundational Stories

 

[tomspug]

President Hinckley, as all the prophets that have gone before him, is the kindest and humblest individual you will ever have the pleasure of meeting should it be your great fortune to do so. He is also a valiant servant of God.

Tell me something, when was the last president that WASN'T the kindest and humblest individual you will ever have the pleasure of meeting? I'm always skeptical of people who are 'elected' as prophets who also have the coincidence of being very wealthy and powerful within the church.

When was the last time the LDS church had a prophet who WASN'T rolling in the dough?

 

[Katzpur]

When was the last time the LDS church had a prophet who WASN'T rolling in the dough?

Tom, there has never been an LDS prophet who was "rolling in the dough." That's the truth. Where did you get the idea that any of our Prophets have been wealthy? President Hinckley lives in an apartment in downtown Salt Lake City. He is certainly not living the lifestyle of a televangelist.

 

[nutshell]

And I wouldn't describe the prophet as "elected" either.

 

[Katzpur]

And I wouldn't describe the prophet as "elected" either.

I didn't even notice that. Obviously, there is some "misinformation" floating about out there.

 

[nutshell]

Tom, what is your understanding of how a prophet is "elected" ?

 

[Bishka]

When was the last time the LDS church had a prophet who WASN'T rolling in the dough?

Since when were they?

Examples please.

 

[athanasius]

How does progressive revelation work in the LDS? If the prophet came out and declared God revealed to him that it was day and it looked like night, would you be bound to beleive it was day?