Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Bishka]

I'm fascinated to learn why long term members would stop believing - any ideas?

Someone offended them.

 

[roli]

Again, you haven't been paying attention or choose to act ignorantly. We've said it time and time again, this is NOT DOCTRINE.



NOT DOCTRINE.




Do you actually want to discuss this?



Funny enough, only ONE bit you've posted so far is actually doctrine.



NOT DOCTRINE.




NOT DOCTRINE. Do you honestly think this is what we believe after we have told you time and time again what doctrine is? Just because someone taught it does not make it doctrine.




NOT DOCTRINE.



Wow. Just wow. You do not read a single thing that we write. These have NEVER been doctrine and probably NEVER will be. It's simple as that. Doesn't make the Prophets any less of Prophets.

Let's see, you've gotten ONE of our doctrines right our of this whole jumbled message (one that you didn't even right, it was CARM's crap). Would you like to try again?

How about we stick to telling you what we believe and you stick to telling us what you believe.

I guess my question is why do these seemingly important men make such claims concerning such doctrines, but are considered by you as being unaccepted.

Are they flase statements, personal opinions, heresy or false prophecy.

Just curious as to the validity of these men at all.

 

[Scott C.]

One could have tested it against the old testemant church.

What do you mean? Noah says "get on board, a flood is coming". There's no other scripture or teaching that says there will be a flood. The hearer has to rely on a personal witness from God that the man is a prophet and he should get on the ark.

 

[roli]

I know that the first edition had multiple issues, and that it was revised extensively as a result. I also know that McConkie is still considered one of the great scriptorians of the church. But regardless, when Roli makes a statement about the plan of salvation using McConkie as his source, and the response is "Not Doctrine" it makes it sound as though we discount the doctrine ourselves, which is not true. From my perspective it has become personal between you and Roli, and we are not really addressing his questions.

I am not offended or do I take it personal and I my objective is not to be an antagonist.
I am just trying to get clarity of particular doctrines and who and what it is that is accepted ,not accepted, doctrine not doctrine, revised,altered, changed.

I just see so much confusion with so many books and so much said by leading leaders that are not counted as doctrine today by LDS.

 

[FFH]

I thought Kolob was a planet not a star.

In Abraham 3:2-3, it says, "And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest."

Yet it also says in...

Abrham 3: 9
And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.


Wouldn't you agree that a star could also be a loose term the Lord uses to describe a distant planet, some with life, some without ???

 

[Bishka]

I
I am just trying to get clarity of particular doctrines and who and what it is that is accepted ,not accepted, doctrine not doctrine, revised,altered, changed..

You want to know our official and full doctrine?

Try here:

Scriptures

Anything you find there we can definitely agree on is doctrine.

According to the LDS Church:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Link here

Understand? This has actual been posted here multiple times so I would hope that you have already read it and understood it's meaning.

 

[Bishka]

I just see so much confusion with so many books and so much said by leading leaders that are not counted as doctrine today by LDS.

Is every book written by every Christian doctrinal in your views?

 

[jonny]

I am not offended or do I take it personal and I my objective is not to be an antagonist.
I am just trying to get clarity of particular doctrines and who and what it is that is accepted ,not accepted, doctrine not doctrine, revised,altered, changed.

I just see so much confusion with so many books and so much said by leading leaders that are not counted as doctrine today by LDS.

You know, most Mormons probably believe a lot of the things you ask about, but they just tire of having to defend it against people like you. It's easier to just say "its not official doctrine" and leave it at that. It isn't confusing if you ask Mormons what they believe instead of pulling out some quote and demanding of them, "SHOW ME WHERE THIS IS IN THE BIBLE!!"

Mormons don't accept the Bible as the sole source of knowledge about God and his plan for us. They accept it as a source of knowledge. If you don't understand this, you'll never understand Mormonism.

Try it. Ask me anything. Start with, "Do you believe..."

 

[Scott C.]

I guess my question is why do these seemingly important men make such claims concerning such doctrines, but are considered by you as being unaccepted.

Are they flase statements, personal opinions, heresy or false prophecy.

Just curious as to the validity of these men at all.

There is far more consistency and unity on doctrine from year to year and from congregation to congregation in the LDS Church, than there is among all of the varying Christian demoninations, each of whom claim the Bible as their only source of doctrine. The restoration of the Gospel and the return of living prophets brought tremendous unity of the faith, not confusion.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm fascinated to learn why long term members would stop believing - any ideas?

I think there are a number of reasons, but I'll give you a couple of examples of things I've personally seen...

Many LDS children grow up in homes with parents who are deeply committed to the Church, but who don't always give their kids room to question. They are made to feel bad about themselves when doubts arise, and this of course ultimately leads to one of two things (1) the kids grow up insisting that they "know the Church is true," regardless of whether they've ever really given it any thought or (2) at some point in their lives they decide they don't want to be told what to believe any more, and they reject everything they've been taught on general principle. Fortunately, my parents raised me differently. I was encouraged to question, and encouraged to figure out the answers for myself.

Among the former group, there are a number of Church members who may appear to be strong in the faith, but who are really just going through the motions. They continue to go to church, maybe partly because their spouse is still interested and they don't want to cause problems in the marriage, or because of social ties. (LDS communities have a LOT of social interaction, activities, etc.) Their kids' friends are LDS and they don't want to cause them any embarrassment, so they just continue to go along, pretending to believe, maybe sort of believing, but not fully committed. Then one of several different things happens. Here are two common ones:

(1) Somebody at church offends them. This can happen in a number of ways, and it's bound to happen to everybody at some point in time. I can think of one time in my own life when a women stood up in church and spoke publicly about how blessed she'd been to have such great kids. She had four sons who, up to that point, had never caused her a minute's worry. She went on and on about how she knew that God had given her these four good boys because she was so deserving! She actually said something like, "God looked down and said, 'I'm going to give her good kids. She deserves good kids.'" Well, I was going through hell with my teenage son at the time, and this was something I didn't need to hear. Shortly thereafter, this woman was called to be the President of the Relief Society (the women's auxilliary) of the congregation. It's an "important" calling. I suffered through three years of her pretentious holier-than-thou attitude before her term of service was up and a replacement was called. Now if I had not been strong in my own faith, that whole experience would likely have pushed me right out the front door of the church. That is seriously the kind of thing that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back in a lot of cases. If a person's faith is already weak, a perceived insult, offense or slight is often enough to make him decide to call it quits. It's only after he leaves that he decides he has a bone to pick with the whole organization, not just with the person who offended him. He finds a non-LDS friend willing to lend an ear and before you know it, this friend is giving him all kinds of support -- in the form of literature that supports his choice to leave. He see anti-Mormon literature for the first time and is completely overwhelmed by it. In an effort to justify his choice to leave, he reads everything he can get his hands on. And then he decides to help the cause. Sounds dramatic, huh? Well, I've seen it happen.

(2) Another scenario involves the same type of person. This time, though, the impetus to leave comes from outside the church. The person is trying to succeed at work, finds himself in social situations that involve behaviors he's been taught not to participate in. He finds that for the very first time in his life, he can get that promotion if he'll just lighten up a little bit. So he starts going to the bars with his boss after work, accepts the offer to go to the football game on Sunday instead of going to Church, etc. etc. etc., and pretty soon finds that he's not really comfortable around his old friends from church. They may get wind of his new choice of activities and may (either intentionally or not) make him feel as if they're judging him. He doesn't like that. Why should he? They're just a bunch of bores who don't know how to have fun. He is finally going somewhere and he's not ready to give up his bright new future. He has to make a choice, so he chooses to leave the Church entirely. This type of person, incidentally, seems to be more willing to just leave and not join up with the local "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" crowd. He's no longer interested in the Church, but he isn't hostile either.

Ramble, ramble, ramble. Sorry.

 

[Sola'lor]

I am not offended or do I take it personal and I my objective is not to be an antagonist.
I am just trying to get clarity of particular doctrines and who and what it is that is accepted ,not accepted, doctrine not doctrine, revised,altered, changed.

I just see so much confusion with so many books and so much said by leading leaders that are not counted as doctrine today by LDS.

The thing is that many of those things are purely opinions given by prophets. Prophets don't know everything. They are allowed to give their opinions just as any other person is allowed opinons.

Just be assured that anything from the book Mormon Doctrine is not official Mormon doctrine. Some members may believe the things contained in there but some do not. This is because it isn't doctrinally binding on ethe church. It is the opinions of one of the apostles.

 

[Katzpur]

I just see so much confusion with so many books and so much said by leading leaders that are not counted as doctrine today by LDS.

Isn't that interesting? Well, let me see if I can simplify it...

1. The Holy Bible
2. The Book of Mormon
3. The Doctrine and Covenants
4. The Pearl of Great Price

Now you know! You need never question again.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I am not offended or do I take it personal and I my objective is not to be an antagonist...

Interesting then that I took the time to answer each and every one of your questions, and you are acting as though I didn't. You say you are searching for clarity but when things are put right in front of your face you ignore them. Clearly then, Roli, your only role here is to play the skeptic and the antagonist.

 

[kadzbiz]

Lack of faith.

I just don't get it Jonny. One joins a church, sticks at it thru thick and thin for several decades, fending off all sorts of criticisms, allegations of blasphemy and ridicule of doctrine & scriptures, and then, just loses faith? Did someone whisper something remarkable in their ear? Did someone show them something else that was beyond doubt? Did they have their own revelation? I'm curious. I can understand a child who becomes aware of the surrounding world, or someone that didn't understand what it was they began to follow, but a long termer?

 

[Evandr]

If I may, nothing is included in LDS Doctrine save the prophet declares it such in no uncertain terms.

If you are ever listening to a prophet and he starts a sentence with "Thus sayeth the Lord" or something similar without referencing what is already in the cannons, you can be sure it is new Doctrinal Scripture and will be included as such. It doesn't happen very often. I do believe that the prophet does receive constant direction with regard to His responsibilities as he administers the duties of his office as well as his personal life. That’s the same kind of revelation that you and I can have with regard to our own personal arena of responsibility and it will come from the same source, namely the Holy Ghost.

To say that every word that comes out of a prophet's mouth is doctrine is just not true. I'm quite sure that there are a lot of things that ancient prophets said that was opinion or simple rhetoric and the like and therefore was not written because it was simply not worth writing.

The apostle Bruce R. McConkie was a very learned man in the Gospel and he wrote a lot of authoritative books on the subject. In his last talk before he died he gave one of the most powerful testimonies on the divinity of Jesus Christ I have ever heard but still, only a prophet can declare Doctrine.

Prefaces, testimonies, cross references, indexes, and a lot of other material in the standard works of the LDS Church do not qualify as Scripture or Doctrine and should not be cited as such.

 

[Evandr]

I'm fascinated to learn why long term members would stop believing - any ideas?

I know I am going back a few pages to answer this one but I just had so please bear with me.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ as set forth in the LDS church is easy to understand. Although everything fits together plainly it still requires work for faith to grow and testimonies to truly be strong. You don't come out of the waters of baptism with a complete set of tried and true attributes, that's just the beginning of the journey.

Anyhow, take someone with security issues, someone who needs everything to fit neatly together. They are raised in the church and everything is grand, they say they have a strong testimony, they serve missions, they do everything until something comes along to test their devotion (the Lord will do that) and suddenly their little world is shaken. This DNA vs. the Book of Mormon thing is a pretty good example. All of a sudden they are likened to those that Lehi saw in his dream who held to the iron rod and then partook of the fruit of the love of God and then cast their eyes about and were ashamed and fell away.
Another analogy is that of the sower (Mark 4:1-20) who cast some of his seed on rocky ground and they grew but the roots were not deep so when the sun bare down they withered and died.

People will embrace the LDS Church for a variety of reasons and then fall away. Years ago while in the Navy stationed over seas I heard of a large group of philippineos' in the Philippine islands that joined and then withered because they found that the Church welfare program was not going to give them everything they needed to live prosperous lives, they thought it was a ticket to a free ride.

God Himself lost 1/3 the host of heaven – go figure.

 

[Sola'lor]

People will embrace the LDS Church for a variety of reasons and then fall away. Years ago while in the Navy stationed over seas I heard of a large group of philippineos' in the Philippine islands that joined and then withered because they found that the Church welfare program was not going to give them everything they needed to live prosperous lives, they thought it was a ticket to a free ride.[/quote]

There was one branch that I knew of that the missionaries had given away free rice as incentive to go to church. I think they might have even payed their pamasahe(money to ride the bus or tricycle). I think the mission president found out and told them to stop.hey did and everybody stopped coming to church. one of my old zone leadesr we assigned to re open that area and He was also assigned as the branch president.

There was a big problem in the Philipppines with cheap baptisms so Elder Oaks was assigned there to help sort it out. I was there during the end of his time there. It was amazing to see all the improvements in the work there.

Btw it's spelled Filipino.

 

[jonny]

I just don't get it Jonny. One joins a church, sticks at it thru thick and thin for several decades, fending off all sorts of criticisms, allegations of blasphemy and ridicule of doctrine & scriptures, and then, just loses faith? Did someone whisper something remarkable in their ear? Did someone show them something else that was beyond doubt? Did they have their own revelation? I'm curious. I can understand a child who becomes aware of the surrounding world, or someone that didn't understand what it was they began to follow, but a long termer?

You know, I don't understand it either, but it happens. I'd say that most "long termers" leave because they were offended over one thing or another. Wards tend to be very tight-nit communities, and when problems happen, it can become a big deal. I know of a family that had been very active in the church (the father had been in a Stake Presidency), and they all jetted because one of the young women in the ward married the boy that their daughter wanted to marry. I'm sure there were other issues between the families, but that was the breaking point.

I've personally never met someone who left the church over doctrinal issues. They usually leave over one thing and then justify it with another.

 

[Sola'lor]

You know, I don't understand it either, but it happens. I'd say that most "long termers" leave because they were offended over one thing or another. Wards tend to be very tight-nit communities, and when problems happen, it can become a big deal. I know of a family that had been very active in the church (the father had been in a Stake Presidency), and they all jetted because one of the young women in the ward married the boy that their daughter wanted to marry. I'm sure there were other issues between the families, but that was the breaking point.

Man, I bet that was a horrible time. DRAMA!!!:areyoucra

 

[Katzpur]

I just don't get it Jonny. One joins a church, sticks at it thru thick and thin for several decades, fending off all sorts of criticisms, allegations of blasphemy and ridicule of doctrine & scriptures, and then, just loses faith? Did someone whisper something remarkable in their ear? Did someone show them something else that was beyond doubt? Did they have their own revelation? I'm curious. I can understand a child who becomes aware of the surrounding world, or someone that didn't understand what it was they began to follow, but a long termer?

I believe I gave a pretty good answer in my post #450. I addressed these questions. I realize it was kind of long-winded, but if you will read it, it should answer your questions.