Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[ChristineES]

I can't really say anything about Mormons, since I am not even sure what they believe. On one side, I have heard various ministers(of other Christian denominations) tell about what LDS doctrine teaches, and when I mention it to a Mormon, they have no idea what I am talking about. I can't seem to separate the lies from the truth when it comes to LDS doctrine. I am embarrassed to bring up the more far-fetched things I have heard thinking that it is possible that it is not even a true doctrine. Some of the things I have heard are very, very far-fetched things and I have a hard time believing that any Christians could believe it. So I just keep my mouth shut about the whole thing.

I take the cowards way out with them.

 

[McBell]

I can't really say anything about Mormons, since I am not even sure what they believe. On one side, I have heard various ministers(of other Christian denominations) tell about what LDS doctrine teaches, and when I mention it to a Mormon, they have no idea what I am talking about. I can't seem to separate the lies from the truth when it comes to LDS doctrine. I am embarrassed to bring up the more far-fetched things I have heard thinking that it is possible that it is not even a true doctrine. Some of the things I have heard are very, very far-fetched things and I have a hard time believing that any Christians could believe it. So I just keep my mouth shut about the whole thing.

I take the cowards way out with them.

I know what you mean.
I have learned so much from reading threads like this one, where a non-Mormon comes in and tells the Mormons what they believe then explains how what they believe is wrong just to have the Mormon members explain, usually ad nauseum, that what they are being told they believe is NOT what they believe, just to have the one with all the wrong information tell the Mormons they are wrong.

 

[Sola'lor]

I know what you mean.
I have learned so much from reading threads like this one, where a non-Mormon comes in and tells the Mormons what they believe then explains how what they believe is wrong just to have the Mormon members explain, usually ad nauseum, that what they are being told they believe is NOT what they believe, just to have the one with all the wrong information tell the Mormons they are wrong.

Hahaha. That's kind of funny. It's like me telling a Muslim what I think they believe and then they correct me. Then I insist that they are wrong and what I think they believe is really what they believe.

Actually Christine I'd love to hear some of those things you've heard about us.

 

[ChristineES]

Actually Christine I'd love to hear some of those things you've heard about us.

I am still embarrassed to bring this up, and remember I didn't spread this around, it is just one of the things I have heard:

That the earth has a god and goddess around it giving birth to spirit babies that people on earth have to give birth to as human babies.

There! I said it it condensed form any way. If it is right or wrong, I would like to know.

 

[Sola'lor]

I am still embarrassed to bring this up, and remember I didn't spread this around, it is just one of the things I have heard:

That the earth has a god and goddess around it giving birth to spirit babies that people on earth have to give birth to as human babies.

There! I said it it condensed form any way. If it is right or wrong, I would like to know.

Interesting. This is similar to what many LDS believe. Many LDS believe that God the Father has a Wife. It is in our Doctrine that marriages can be sealed for all eternity. However there is no doctrine that states God has a wife. Our doctrine is that our spirits were organized by God before the Earth was ever formed. Many LDS believe that God's wife plays a vital motherly role in the organization of Spirits. Since the process for the organization of Spirits is unkown. Our doctrine is that we all must come to Earth to gain physical bodies and be tried. Our Earthly parents create physical bodies(through procreation) that our spirits enter.

So ...

1. God the father organizes spirits(us) before Earth was created.
2. Our spirits gain physical bodies by entering the bodies our earthly parents create for us.

That's doctrine.

And...

1. God's wife (sometimes refered to as Heavenly Mother) is the mother of our spirits.

Not doctrine, but commonly accepted.

2. God's wife gave birth to our spirits.

NOt remotly close to doctrine. No information about this. Purely individual speculation.


Anything else you've heard?

 

[tomspug]

Well, I think Christine is right in saying that there is a lot of BS out there about LDS doctrine, but it seems to me there is a separation of knowledge in the Mormon church. Where older members have knowledge about doctrines like 'progression', pre-life, and after-life, most members of the church have no idea that the LDS church believes anything different from other denominations.

What is troubling to me is that it appears that the LDS church encourages this convenient lack of information. Why is it that so many 'non-missionaries' are not aware of the doctrines that many on this thread seem so well-versed in?

I mean, I imagine that there is a large amount of LDS that DO believe that God and Jesus are ONE and also believe in hell.

 

[Sola'lor]

Well, I think Christine is right in saying that there is a lot of BS out there about LDS doctrine, but it seems to me there is a separation of knowledge in the Mormon church. Where older members have knowledge about doctrines like 'progression', pre-life, and after-life, most members of the church have no idea that the LDS church believes anything different from other denominations.

What is troubling to me is that it appears that the LDS church encourages this convenient lack of information. Why is it that so many 'non-missionaries' are not aware of the doctrines that many on this thread seem so well-versed in?

The church doesn't encourage a convenient lack of information. The Church encourages us to read the scriptures, pray, learn about the Gospel. The problem is a lot of members are to lazy to do those things. Serving a mission gives a person a huge jumps start when it comes to the chruch information, scripture knowledge, etc.

I mean, I imagine that there is a large amount of LDS that DO believe that God and Jesus are ONE and also believe in hell.

I imagine there are too especially in the Philippines where I served my mission. But it's up to the individual to what degree they will read the scriptures and explore the LDS faith.

EDIT: Well LDS still do believe both of those in a way.

 

[Katzpur]

Christine, you have always been one of the finest examples of a true Christian I have met here on RF. I seriously hope that you won't ever be embarrassed to ask these questions. I am confident that you are not one to spread around rumors, but I hate to think that you might believe them, rather than just ask us to explain what we really believe.

Most of the time, if you hear something that is so far-fetched that it's hard to imagine anyone could believe it, it's a good bet that nobody does believe it. Most of the things people outside our Church accuse us of believing are things that may very-well have some basis in fact. But when people have only a superficial understanding of something, they tend to like to embellish the facts. What ends up happening is that the truth of what we really believe is distorted to the extent that it becomes laughable.

I am still embarrassed to bring this up, and remember I didn't spread this around, it is just one of the things I have heard:

That the earth has a god and goddess around it giving birth to spirit babies that people on earth have to give birth to as human babies.

We believe that God, our Father in Heaven, created each one of us. Hebrews 12:9 states, "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto theFather of spirits, and live?" We believe that He is the Father of our spirits and that we are His spirit children. Acts 17:29 says, "Forasmuch then as we are theoffspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." We believe that, while we may be correctly referred to as God's creations, we are more than merely His creations; we are His own offspring. I have never heard a fellow Latter-day Saint describe this as "giving birth to spirit babies." To begin with, giving birth is a physical process by which a physical baby enters the physical world. I have no idea how our Heavenly Father created our spirits, but I don't believe that it has anything to do with the procreation process we here on earth think of as "giving birth."

We also do believe that we have a Mother in Heaven. We have been given almost no information at all about her other than that she exists and is God's eternal companion. If we have a Father of our Spirits, it does not strike me at at all unbelievable to think that we also have a Mother of our Spirits. We don't worship Her, pray to Her, or even talk about Her in Church. At this point, we simply believe that She exists. One other point I should mention: We believe that God did not create our spirits the moment we were conceived, the moment we were born, or at some time in between. We believe He created them long, long ago and that we lived as spirit beings (i.e. without a physical body) with Him in Heaven before being born. We believe that He knew and loved each one of us personally and that we were blessed to know Him, too. The Bible does not specifically teach of our pre-mortal existence, but it does allude to it in several places. It is discussed in greater detail in the revelations we believe God has given to His Latter-day Prophets.

Anyway, I hope that clears up a few things in your mind.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, I think Christine is right in saying that there is a lot of BS out there about LDS doctrine, but it seems to me there is a separation of knowledge in the Mormon church. Where older members have knowledge about doctrines like 'progression', pre-life, and after-life, most members of the church have no idea that the LDS church believes anything different from other denominations.

You may be right to some extent, but I think you are definitely wrong in terms of degree. I'm sure there are many members of the Church who have no idea that some of our doctrines differ as much as they do from those of traditional Christianity. But these people would be those who were born and raised in the Church and who grew up in areas with a high concentration of Latter-day Saints (i.e. Utah and Idaho). On the other hand, two-thirds of our 13 million members are first-generation converts to the Church. Undoubtedly, if they have converted from Catholicism or Protestantism, they know very well how the doctrines of the Church differ from their former church. Little children are taught these doctrines from an early age. While they are not taught that other Christian Churches don't believe in a pre-mortal existance, that's certainly not because we are trying to mislead them. We simply teach them what we believe to be true. As they grow older, and make friends outside of the Church, they will undoubtedly discover that this is a belief unique to their Church.

What is troubling to me is that it appears that the LDS church encourages this convenient lack of information. Why is it that so many 'non-missionaries' are not aware of the doctrines that many on this thread seem so well-versed in?

The Church definitely does not encourage its members to be uninformed. What the Church does, is teach its own doctrines, not distortions of those doctrines. We don't go to church to learn what other people think we believe. We go to church to learn what the scriptures (the Standard Works) teach. If most non-missionary Latter-day Saints are not aware of the doctrines we've discussed on this thread, it's because they don't interact on a daily basis with people who are raising the questions people on this thread have raised. These questions are old hat to anyone who is interested in apologetics, and those of us who are know exactly where to find the answers if we don't already know them. (And most of the time, we've given the same answer to twenty other people within the previous six months or so already.) Ask most non-Mormons what Mormons believe and they don't have a clue. If they've ventured into some of the anti-Mormon websites out there, they will have a distorted view of what we believe, but if they haven't, they are just as much in the dark as the Latter-day Saints who don't have a clue that there are people out there who believe we believe God and Mary had sex in order for her to become pregnant with Jesus.

[/quote]I mean, I imagine that there is a large amount of LDS that DO believe that God and Jesus are ONE and also believe in hell.[/quote]I think a knowledge of the Godhead is probably the most fundamental doctrine of the Church. Our first Article of Faith states, "We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." Any LDS second-grader could tell you about Joseph Smith's First Vision and that he saw and talked to two separate individuals -- Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. And, for the record, we do believe in Hell. We just call it "Outer Darkness" and we don't believe many people will end up there. We certainly don't think you will.

 

[roli]

You may be right to some extent, but I think you are definitely wrong in terms of degree. I'm sure there are many members of the Church who have no idea that some of our doctrines differ as much as they do from those of traditional Christianity. But these people would be those who were born and raised in the Church and who grew up in areas with a high concentration of Latter-day Saints (i.e. Utah and Idaho). On the other hand, two-thirds of our 13 million members are first-generation converts to the Church. Undoubtedly, if they have converted from Catholicism or Protestantism, they know very well how the doctrines of the Church differ from their former church. Little children are taught these doctrines from an early age. While they are not taught that other Christian Churches don't believe in a pre-mortal existance, that's certainly not because we are trying to mislead them. We simply teach them what we believe to be true. As they grow older, and make friends outside of the Church, they will undoubtedly discover that this is a belief unique to their Church.

The Church definitely does not encourage its members to be uninformed. What the Church does, is teach its own doctrines, not distortions of those doctrines. We don't go to church to learn what other people think we believe. We go to church to learn what the scriptures (the Standard Works) teach. If most non-missionary Latter-day Saints are not aware of the doctrines we've discussed on this thread, it's because they don't interact on a daily basis with people who are raising the questions people on this thread have raised. These questions are old hat to anyone who is interested in apologetics, and those of us who are know exactly where to find the answers if we don't already know them. (And most of the time, we've given the same answer to twenty other people within the previous six months or so already.) Ask most non-Mormons what Mormons believe and they don't have a clue. If they've ventured into some of the anti-Mormon websites out there, they will have a distorted view of what we believe, but if they haven't, they are just as much in the dark as the Latter-day Saints who don't have a clue that there are people out there who believe we believe God and Mary had sex in order for her to become pregnant with Jesus.

I mean, I imagine that there is a large amount of LDS that DO believe that God and Jesus are ONE and also believe in hell.[/quote]I think a knowledge of the Godhead is probably the most fundamental doctrine of the Church. Our first Article of Faith states, "We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." Any LDS second-grader could tell you about Joseph Smith's First Vision and that he saw and talked to two separate individuals -- Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. And, for the record, we do believe in Hell. We just call it "Outer Darkness" and we don't believe many people will end up there. We certainly don't think you will.[/quote]

I appreciate such a clear break down of LDS from your perspective, very informitive and I understand that some anti LDS sites are quite possibly ignorant of some facts, but info on sites such as carm, are not much different than carm.
As a matter of fact ,many of your own people who have left LDS have agreed with much of these anti LDS sites and the controversy over the teachings of LDS being compared with Christianity.

I am just purposing that it seems a bit ludicrous to imagine that many of these anti LDS sites and former members are all fabricating false information and giving LDS bad rap.

 

[roli]

How do present LDS members view former LDS memebers, are they all ex communicated and defamed and labelled as heretics.

 

[Katzpur]

I am just purposing that it seems a bit ludicrous to imagine that many of these anti LDS sites and former members are all fabricating false information and giving LDS bad rap.

It might seem ludicrous to you, but I know what my Church teaches. When someone wants to make someone else look bad, misrepresentation is probably the best way I know of. Since you don't seem to think that former members of the Church would have any ulterior motives for trying to distort our doctrines, maybe you would like to tell me what I possibly would have to gain by telling you a pack of lies about what I hear when I go to church every Sunday.

 

[Katzpur]

How do present LDS members view former LDS memebers, are they all ex communicated and defamed and labelled as heretics.

It all depends on the former LDS member. My sister, her husband, my son and my daughter were all raised LDS. None of them now considers themselves to be members of the Church. They were not excommunicated and they have not attempted to defame the Church, so I just consider them non-Mormons. I know a number of people who no longer consider themselves to be members of the Church. As long as they are willing to live and let live, so am I.

 

[kadzbiz]

You know, I don't understand it either, but it happens. .... They usually leave over one thing and then justify it with another.

I see.

I believe I gave a pretty good answer in my post #450. I addressed these questions. I realize it was kind of long-winded, but if you will read it, it should answer your questions.

Sorry. I don't know how I missed that. Thanks for the input.

 

[jonny]

How do present LDS members view former LDS memebers, are they all ex communicated and defamed and labelled as heretics.

No. I've never heard the world "heretic" used in an LDS setting. We usually call them inactive. Few ever actually are excommunicated. They just stop coming like in any other church.

 

[Scott C.]

How do present LDS members view former LDS memebers, are they all ex communicated and defamed and labelled as heretics.

Not everyone who leaves the church is excommunicated. Generally, they are not. If I just stopped coming to church and my leaders tried to persuade me to come back, I would not be excommunicated for remaining inactive in the church. A few people ask that there membership be removed from the church when they leave the church. Their requests are granted. I would have to say that these folks are "self excommunicated".

If a person leaves the church and goes public with persistent statements that are not true concerning our beliefs, or if they persistently falsely defame the good names of other church members, they might end up excommunicated. The Church leaders really do treat these people compassionately and hope and pray that they will have a change of heart. We don't have a harsh system of labeling people who are struggling with or who have completely abandoned the faith.

 

[jonny]

Well, I think Christine is right in saying that there is a lot of BS out there about LDS doctrine, but it seems to me there is a separation of knowledge in the Mormon church. Where older members have knowledge about doctrines like 'progression', pre-life, and after-life, most members of the church have no idea that the LDS church believes anything different from other denominations.

What is troubling to me is that it appears that the LDS church encourages this convenient lack of information. Why is it that so many 'non-missionaries' are not aware of the doctrines that many on this thread seem so well-versed in?

I mean, I imagine that there is a large amount of LDS that DO believe that God and Jesus are ONE and also believe in hell.

Honestly, I didn't realize that anyone believed that they were physically one until AFTER I got home from my mission and started participating in these forums. It also never occurred to me that any other Christians didn't believe God had a physical body. The idea that a Mormon could believe that God the Father and Christ are one in anything other than purpose astounds me. They couldn't possibly pay attention in church - this is a fundamental doctrine of the church.

Christians like to make the argument that Mormons don't tell new members all the doctrines of the church the first time we meet them because it will scare them off. The book Gospel Principles is the manual for the class that every new member of the church is supposed to participate in. I beg you to find a topic of LDS doctrine that isn't covered in that book. If they put in the effort, they'll learn the doctrines. We can't help it if someone doesn't participate in the classes.

 

[jonny]

I am just purposing that it seems a bit ludicrous to imagine that many of these anti LDS sites and former members are all fabricating false information and giving LDS bad rap.

Do you think that people who leave your church and proceed to fight against it make an effort to represent your beliefs objectively?

 

[jonny]

It might seem ludicrous to you, but I know what my Church teaches. When someone wants to make someone else look bad, misrepresentation is probably the best way I know of. Since you don't seem to think that former members of the Church would have any ulterior motives for trying to distort our doctrines, maybe you would like to tell me what I possibly would have to gain by telling you a pack of lies about what I hear when I go to church every Sunday.

Come on Kathryn. You know that you're trying to trick our friend Roli into believing that we're Christians in hopes that he'll become a Mormon. That way we can brainwash him and then throw the truth about what we believe at him. At that point, he'll be so convinced that he'll believe anything we say is true.

 

[Scott C.]

I am just purposing that it seems a bit ludicrous to imagine that many of these anti LDS sites and former members are all fabricating false information and giving LDS bad rap.

When I read an "anti-Mormon" web site, I see some truth about what I believe, some lies about what I believe, some half truths, and a lot of distortions using clever words with subtle undertones. If these things are written by former Mormons, I can't explain why they say what they say. I can only say that when I read it, it does not represent what I see and hear and know about my Church.

If my church were creepy as some ex-Mormons make it out to be, and if I knew that they were telling the truth, and if I knew that the Church was trying to suppress the truth of it's creepiness, why would I stay in the Church? I have absolutely nothing to gain from my membership in my church if my church is not what it claims to be - The restored New Testament Church. If it's not what it claims to be and yet has some good, I could find that good elsewhere. I'm saying this because the apparent suspicion of some non-Mormons towards Mormons, and towards their willingness to truthfully explain what they believe, truly baffles me.