Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[TrueBlue2]

Do you think that a war is a sin?

It depends. If a country is forced to defend their liberties and freedoms through war, then no. If a Hitler has world domination as his goal, and threatens and overruns other countries as a result, then yes.

You quoted 1 Nephi in an attempt to prove that LDS would kill if directed by God. The Israelites conquered whole cities because of a directive of God. Still, the question would be a serious test of faith for any righteous individual I would hope.

 

[TrueBlue2]

The Book of Mormon reveals nothing of the sort.

Nutshell, based on what I'm reading here it looks like you've already bitten off a little more than you can chew. Next time you read the BofM look a little closer.

 

[kadzbiz]

I think you would have to agree that a lot of evidence has been uncovered regarding ancient civilizations in South America. It is true that we really have no idea as to the exact location of Zarahemla.

You're surely not suggesting the Nephites had anything to do with the many ruins found in South America? There hasn't been any evidence that they relate to anything Nephitic or Lamanetic.

 

[trugschlusskadenz]

Just because a particular ethnic group has a darker skin color does not mean they are cursed. Curses run much deeper than the surface of the skin.

why is a curse called SKIN-curse when curses run much deeper than the surface of the skin?

how ist your standpoint referring to marriage of homosexuals? does your church wed gays/lesbians to prevent their eternal lives as singles?

thanx.
.

 

[nutshell]

Nutshell, based on what I'm reading here it looks like you've already bitten off a little more than you can chew. Next time you read the BofM look a little closer.

Logical fallacy: ad hominen.

That means you lose.

 

[Francine]

You quoted 1 Nephi in an attempt to prove that LDS would kill if directed by God. The Israelites conquered whole cities because of a directive of God. Still, the question would be a serious test of faith for any righteous individual I would hope.

How do we know a voice inside us is the Spirit of God and not a temptation from Satan? The first test should be, does it command us to transgress the Law? The murder of Laban in order to steal his plates breaks two of the Ten Commandments.

Subduing the land of Canaan required a military invasion. This has never been interpreted as murder. We don't contemplate life in prison for the President getting us into Iraq, unless we are from the far left.

 

[TrueBlue2]

You're surely not suggesting the Nephites had anything to do with the many ruins found in South America? There hasn't been any evidence that they relate to anything Nephitic or Lamanetic.

Actually, that is what I'm suggesting. Lots of evidence has been uncovered that suggests these ancient inhabitants had baptismal fonts, temple worship, and other religious ceremonies consistent with the teachings of the Nephites. But, of course, since most of the scientists have no knowledge of the Nephites they're not going to tie the two together, are they? Looked at objectively there are some very fascinating discoveries. I fear though that you're asking the questions because you reside only in the skeptical camp...

 

[TrueBlue2]

How do we know a voice inside us is the Spirit of God and not a temptation from Satan? The first test should be, does it command us to transgress the Law? The murder of Laban in order to steal his plates breaks two of the Ten Commandments...

Francine, this conversation wanders far from the basic fundamental teachings of Christ and about Christ that I would prefer to discuss. I totally agree with your first sentence. Fortunately, this is a dilemma that I seriously doubt any of us will have to face. The point is that God, as lawgiver, sometimes makes exceptions to the universal law. As you have already agreed God commanded the armies of the Israelites to destroy whole cities. We could ask lots of "whys" about that if we chose to. God also commanded Abraham to slay his own son, and if the angel had not of intervened, he would have OBEYED. Let's be careful that we not cross the bridge into the realm of hypocrisy.

Now can we get back to a more fundamental topic?

 

[Francine]

Actually, that is what I'm suggesting. Lots of evidence has been uncovered that suggests these ancient inhabitants had baptismal fonts, temple worship, and other religious ceremonies consistent with the teachings of the Nephites.

I must have glossed over the human sacrifice part (ala Mel Gibson's Mayan movie Apocalypto) when I read the BoM.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I mean could you be the one's Jesus spoke of coming in and deceiving the church, the false prophet and teachers. I mean if your not, then we born again Christians must be.
There can't be 2 truths, one of us are wrong than.
Is there a remote possibility to you that you are deceived.

There is a remote possibility that we all are deceived and that Islam is the true church.

I believe that the one Jesus spoke of is the Anti Christ, who will try to start a one world religion.

My God man, Even Paul wrote letters to different churches that had issues and differences. Perhaps one of those churches were false. That is not the point however.

This mentality of only one of us has it right so one of us is of the devil is a dangerous theocracy.

What you are doing is judging. That is not for us to do. I will say however that if I was to judge, the Mormons are living a cleaner, more devoted lifestyle than many of us judgemental Protestants are. All this talk about plural marriages, race, and gender, lets live in the here and now. Mitt Romney is the only republican candidate who has had one wife. As far as gender and race goes, he without sin cast the first stone, OK?

All I know is, I am glad I don't have to judge, and if your smart, you will not either.

 

[Francine]

The point is that God, as lawgiver, sometimes makes exceptions to the universal law.

God could command Abraham to attempt to murder Isaac to test his faith, knowing that Abraham would be stopped at the last moment, but God could not command Nephi to murder Laban and steal the brass plates, because he foreknew that Nephi would follow through with both of those sins. They violate the Natural Law given to Adam and Eve, in addition to the Noahide Law and Law of Moses. A good God cannot command evil on a whim.

 

[PureX]

Who is held eternally accountable for the sin of war? The President? Congress for funding it? The voters for not throwing those bums out? The soldiers for following orders?

All of the above.

War is always wrong, even when it's necessary. Killing, even in self defense, is still wrong and is still a 'sin'.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Killing, even in self defense, is still wrong and is still a 'sin'.

Murder is the sin. Killing may not be murder.

 

[PureX]

Murder is the sin. Killing may not be murder.

Then why didn't Jesus fight back? ... I guess he wasn't a lawyer.

 

[Katzpur]

You're surely not suggesting the Nephites had anything to do with the many ruins found in South America? There hasn't been any evidence that they relate to anything Nephitic or Lamanetic.

What kind of evidence do you believe would be conclusive?

 

[TrueBlue2]

Murder is the sin. Killing may not be murder.

I agree with this Rick!

 

[Katzpur]

why is a curse called SKIN-curse when curses run much deeper than the surface of the skin?

Yes, curses to run much deeper than the surface of the skin. The word "skin" is actually symbolic of something much deeper, too.

how ist your standpoint referring to marriage of homosexuals? does your church wed gays/lesbians to prevent their eternal lives as singles?

We believe that marriage was ordained by God to be between a man and a woman.

 

[TrueBlue2]

God could command Abraham to attempt to murder Isaac to test his faith, knowing that Abraham would be stopped at the last moment, but God could not command Nephi to murder Laban and steal the brass plates, because he foreknew that Nephi would follow through with both of those sins. They violate the Natural Law given to Adam and Eve, in addition to the Noahide Law and Law of Moses. A good God cannot command evil on a whim.

The one true God of the Israelites may not be the same being you are worshipping Francine. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. The justification given to Nephi to slay Laban was "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." (1 Nephi 1:13) The plates of brass contained the scriptures - the Law of Moses. Had they not brought them to America they would not have had a blueprint in how to live their lives. They all would have fallen into apostasy. That's an easy one to buy for me.

The Bible is full of evidence that the statement above is true. God destroying the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Joshua overrunning the land of Canaan. The flood destroys everyone on the earth except Noah and his family. King David. And if you want to bring it back to a personal level let's not forget that Moses slew an Egyptian. So your argument that "a good God wouldn't" is not at all supported by the very Bible you claim to be the word of God.

And it is impossible for a man to OBEY God and commit sin. Moses was justified in slaying the Egyptian and his actions were righteous. Had Abraham followed through his actions would have been righteous. And so was Nephi's as subsequent events showed.

And I don't see this at all as a Mormon question. The same question could be extended to any of us. Would you, Francine, as a Catholic, obey God EVEN if it seemed to contradict your core values and what you've been taught to believe?

 

[Francine]

And I don't see this at all as a Mormon question. The same question could be extended to any of us. Would you, Francine, as a Catholic, obey God EVEN if it seemed to contradict your core values and what you've been taught to believe?

I do not obey God's law against unchastity. Nevertheless, I am able to discuss religious topics, because it is a logical fallacy (ad hominem) to falsify an assertion based on the personal behavior of the person who makes the claim.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Thanks for the honesty. And by the way you're very good at discussing religion. I've only been on here a short while and I've seen numerous thought provoking spiritual discussions initiated by you. Please keep them coming. And know that I would never intentionally say anything harmful about you personally. You're a tremendously talented individual.