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Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

Francine

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the honesty. And by the way you're very good at discussing religion. I've only been on here a short while and I've seen numerous thought provoking spiritual discussions initiated by you. Please keep them coming. And know that I would never intentionally say anything harmful about you personally. You're a tremendously talented individual.

Thank you very much, TrueBlue! I may have posted in the wrong forum here and there, or maybe presumed to speak for this-and-that group about their beliefs when I ought not to have, but I thank God that I have never launched a personal attack on anyone in this forum. Such an action would, in fact, be antithetical to who I am.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
How do we know a voice inside us is the Spirit of God and not a temptation from Satan? The first test should be, does it command us to transgress the Law? The murder of Laban in order to steal his plates breaks two of the Ten Commandments.
No because Laban sought to destroy Nephi's life.

An angel appeared to Nephi, Laman, Lemuel and Sam.

1 Nephi 3
29 And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.

1 Nephi 4
3 Now behold ye know that this is true; and ye also know that an angel hath spoken unto you; wherefore can ye doubt? Let us go up; the Lord is able to deliver us, even as our fathers, and to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians.
........
7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he (Laban) had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

Subduing the land of Canaan required a military invasion. This has never been interpreted as murder. We don't contemplate life in prison for the President getting us into Iraq, unless we are from the far left.
Nephi slaying Laban was an act of self defense, even though he (Laban) was drunk. If Laban had been sober he would have commanded his guards to kill Nephi. The Lord had to create a circumstance in which he could access Laban to get the plates which had the law (most likely the first five books of the Old Testament or parts of the Old Testement) on them.

Laban would have commanded his army to defend these plates (the law) for whatever selfish reasons he had, maybe for the monetary value of the gold, but really it was Satan working behind the scenes to keep the law (Old Testament) from the people. Catholics tried to do the same by not allowing/forbidding the common man to read the Old and New Testament.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Actually, that is what I'm suggesting. Lots of evidence has been uncovered that suggests these ancient inhabitants had baptismal fonts, temple worship, and other religious ceremonies consistent with the teachings of the Nephites. But, of course, since most of the scientists have no knowledge of the Nephites they're not going to tie the two together, are they? Looked at objectively there are some very fascinating discoveries. I fear though that you're asking the questions because you reside only in the skeptical camp...


And now it looks like you've bitten off more than you can chew. From FARMS:

Statement on Book of Mormon Geography
The question of precisely where the events chronicled in the Book of Mormon took place arises naturally since to date neither the record itself nor the Lord through his prophets has revealed its New World setting in terms that permit conclusive linkages to modern-day locales. Speculation on the subject has spawned two principal theories: the hemispheric model (with Book of Mormon lands comprising North, Central, and South America) and the limited geography model (a restricted New World setting on the order of hundreds rather than thousands of miles). Although the hemispheric view was popular among early Latter-day Saints, it simply is not clear whether it was the result of prophetic revelation or merely the outgrowth of the personal ideas and assumptions of the Prophet Joseph Smith and other brethren. Historical research indicates that Joseph Smith never claimed revelation on the subject and that the thinking of early church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography was subject to modification as new information came to light. Indeed, the diversity of nineteenth-century opinion is striking, attesting that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had no authoritative stance on what was—and continues to be—an open issue. Today many Latter-day Saint scholars and other serious students of the Book of Mormon favor the limited geography theory, with Mesoamerica (extending from southern Mexico to Guatemala) as the Book of Mormon homeland. This interpretation, with antecedents apparent in the 1840s, seems to best match the complex requirements of the scriptural text itself while remaining tenable after years of rigorous examination in light of the archaeological and cultural record of ancient Mesoamerica. More Information
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
And now it looks like you've bitten off more than you can chew. From FARMS:

Statement on Book of Mormon Geography
The question of precisely where the events chronicled in the Book of Mormon took place arises naturally since to date neither the record itself nor the Lord through his prophets has revealed its New World setting in terms that permit conclusive linkages to modern-day locales. Speculation on the subject has spawned two principal theories: the hemispheric model (with Book of Mormon lands comprising North, Central, and South America) and the limited geography model (a restricted New World setting on the order of hundreds rather than thousands of miles). Although the hemispheric view was popular among early Latter-day Saints, it simply is not clear whether it was the result of prophetic revelation or merely the outgrowth of the personal ideas and assumptions of the Prophet Joseph Smith and other brethren. Historical research indicates that Joseph Smith never claimed revelation on the subject and that the thinking of early church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography was subject to modification as new information came to light. Indeed, the diversity of nineteenth-century opinion is striking, attesting that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had no authoritative stance on what was—and continues to be—an open issue. Today many Latter-day Saint scholars and other serious students of the Book of Mormon favor the limited geography theory, with Mesoamerica (extending from southern Mexico to Guatemala) as the Book of Mormon homeland. This interpretation, with antecedents apparent in the 1840s, seems to best match the complex requirements of the scriptural text itself while remaining tenable after years of rigorous examination in light of the archaeological and cultural record of ancient Mesoamerica. More Information
Thanks for posting that, Nutshell. I was aware of the statement, but didn't know where to find it.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Rent The Book of Mormon Movie Volume 1: The Journey (2003) , it clearly depicts an actual angel commanding them to go and take the plates (the law) from Laban.... Whatever it took, they had to do it.

Volume two is coming out this year: The Book of Mormon Movie, Volume II: Zarahemla (2008)

1 Nephi 3
29 And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Rent The Book of Mormon Movie Volume 1: The Journey (2003) , it clearly depicts an actual angel commanding them to go and take the plates (the law) from Laban.... Whatever it took, they had to do it.

Volume two is coming out this year: The Book of Mormon Movie, Volume II: Zarahemla (2008)

1 Nephi 3
29 And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.

Since when is a movie authoritative?
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
Catholics tried to do the same by not allowing/forbidding the common man to read the Old and New Testament.

Normally I would let this go, considering the source, but this is a slander against Holy Mother Church. The bibles that were chained in the Cathedrals were not chained shut, but chained in order to keep someone from stealing them, since it took many monk-hours to make a copy. The Latin Vulgate has always been available to anyone to read. After the invention of the printing press, but before Martin Luther published his German translation, there were 20 different Catholic bibles in circulation printed in the local vernacular. Some of these were forbidden because they were faulty translations or had misleading liner notes.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
There's a huge difference between shedding INNOCENT blood and the blood of an enemy, who has sought to destroy/kill you. War is justified in the Lord's eyes, if the enemy has sought to destroy/kill.

In the infamous words of Rambo...:)....

"They drew first blood".

Alqueda (terrorists groups) are perfect examples of this, Laban was no different, he was the equivalent of an ancient terrorist enemy and Jerusalem was soon thereafter overcome and destoyed, that's why Lehi and his family had to leave and come to North America to get away from the evil that had taken over that area.

Jeremiah 22: 3, 17
3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
And since when was that particular movie worth the price it costs to rent it? You couldn't pay me to watch it a second time and I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone else.
Very alarming to hear you say that. It's THE most important movie ever being produced, albeit no perfect, they did the best they could, given the EXTREMELY limited funds.

Look at the movie for what it's worth, eternally immeasurable to the souls of all those who view it.

Was not Nephi's dream (the scene where Christ was shown as the savior of the world) not moving enough for you ???
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Very alarming to hear you say that. It's THE most important movie ever being produced, albeit no perfect, they did the best they could, given the EXTREMELY limited funds.

Look at the movie for what it's worth, eternally immeasurable to the souls of all those who view it.

Was not Nephi's dream (the scene where Christ was shown as the savior of the world) not moving enough for you ???

Did God reveal to you that this movie is now a part of the Standard Works?
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Normally I would let this go, considering the source, but this is a slander against Holy Mother Church. The bibles that were chained in the Cathedrals were not chained shut, but chained in order to keep someone from stealing them, since it took many monk-hours to make a copy. The Latin Vulgate has always been available to anyone to read. After the invention of the printing press, but before Martin Luther published his German translation, there were 20 different Catholic bibles in circulation printed in the local vernacular. Some of these were forbidden because they were faulty translations or had misleading liner notes.
Yeah, you wouldn't want the common man reading what was actually in the Bible. :rolleyes:
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Did God reveal to you that this movie is now a part of the Standard Works?
It does not deviate from the Book of Mormon in any way. No significant artistic liberties were taken/produced in this film.

It follows the story line exactly and quotes directly from the Book of Mormon.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
It does not deviate from the Book of Mormon in any way. No significant artistic liberties were produced in this film.

It follows the story line exactly and quotes directly from the Book of Mormon.

It is still an interpretation. And what is a movie but artistic expression? It's no more authoritative than Mormons for Dummies which also includes direct quotes from scripture.
 

trugschlusskadenz

New Member
Yes, curses to run much deeper than the surface of the skin. The word "skin" is actually symbolic of something much deeper, too.

different languages, different understanding of terms?
"skin" in german always is seen in context with external matters.


We believe that marriage was ordained by God to be between a man and a woman.

what crimes are homosexuals accused? i mean, they havent picked their sexual orientation themselves.

:confused:
 

FFH

Veteran Member
It is still an interpretation. And what is a movie but artistic expression? It's no more authoritative than Mormons for Dummies which also includes direct quotes from scripture.
It follows the story line EXACTLY and quotes exact scripture, how can that be misinterpreted.

I've been through the Book of Mormon more times than I can count and there were absolutely no significant artistic liberties or personal interpretations taken/produced in this film (The Book of Mormon Movie).
 

FFH

Veteran Member
It is still an interpretation. And what is a movie but artistic expression? It's no more authoritative than Mormons for Dummies which also includes direct quotes from scripture.
I've been through the Book of Mormon more times than I can count and there were absolutely NO artistic liberties or personal interpretations taken/produced in this film (The Book of Mormon Movie), absolutely NONE.

The Book of Mormon will be rejected among all nations, kindreds, tongues, people, religions, etc., including LDS members.

You've stated in another thread, that you've had a hard time taking the Book of Mormon literally in certain places.

Will look up your exact quote and post it here or you can just quote yourself here like you said it in your "omniscience" thread.
 
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