Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Katzpur]

We as LDS tend to get upset when challenged with tough questions.

Speak for yourself. I love a challenge.

You, s2a, have come forward with some great, but very tough questions which most LDS have little knowlege about or answers to. Be/go easy on them/us.

Most of s2a's questions were not tough at all. Most of them could be answered in one sentence, without any research. Most Latter-day Saints could answer 90% of them in our sleep. I was in the middle of trying to find out how many children Joseph Smith fathered when I saw that nutshell had already posted answers to all of the questions. Consequently, I didn't bother to repeat what he had already said. There weren't too many ways of answering most of the questions.

I merely commented on his question about Kolob, because I think he knows darned well that we can't point it out to him on a star chart. (Well, I should say most of us can't. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you could. ) S2a doesn't typically "go easy" on theists of any kind, but he doesn't give us any worse time than he does anybody else. In that regard he is a kind of an "equal opportunity skeptic."

You need to stop playing the role of being the only Latter-day Saint who is willing and able to defend your faith. Everybody here knows that's not the case.

 

[Scott C.]

Is it true that the present residing prophet of your church can overturn any past present or future authority of teaching and basically rewrite your teachings a he see's fit.

No, that is not the case at all. I beliieve our prophet receives direct guidance from heaven on probably a daily basis. The intensity of the impressions of the Spirit may range from what some would call "inspiration" to more intense and direct "revelation". In either case, Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church is moving the Church forward through the prophet. Most of the revelations received by the current prophet are for guiding the Church and its members, as oppossed to establishing doctrine. Now, if God wants to reveal doctrine from heaven, it will come to the prophet and will be sustained by the rest of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

 

[Katzpur]

If what you're implying were true, the persistent little buggers would never come back.

According to your earlier posts, Francine, you invited them back a number of times, and had some great conversations with them. Were they "persistent little buggers" then, or did you just use that phrase because it fits nicely into this debate?

 

[nutshell]

According to your earlier posts, Francine, you invited them back a number of times, and had some great conversations with them. Were they "persistent little buggers" then, or did you just use that phrase because it fits nicely into this debate?

I tool her comment as a compliment.

Persistance certainly brought some people I know to the gospel.

 

[Scott C.]

Is that not a rather bold claim to say you are the restored church of Jesus Christ, where does that place the rest of believers, do you think we are lost or deceived

The claim of our Church is very bold, in my opinion. It is not intended to be offensive, however. The reason our church spends so much time, effort, and money on missionary work is because we really do believe it's true and really do believe it's an important message for all of humanity, including those who are already Christian. Our message is a message of love for everyone. Why else would we spend so much effort on spreading the message to the world? If anyone thinks that our top church leaders get some special personal gain or financial bonus based on conversion rates, they are very, very, very mistaken. President Hinckley did not choose to run our Church. He was called of God and now spends nearly every waking moment working himself to the bone to spread the message of truth. The motivation is pure. Even if you don't accept the message as true, I absolutely and positively guarantee, that if you spent the time to get to know the Prophets and Apostles today, to understand them and their lives, you would agree.

Where does it place the rest of believers? I believe I have someting as a church member that other beievers do not have. They need it. God wants them to have it. The fact that I believe this, does not mean that I think I'm better than someone who does not yet have what I have.

Do I think you are lost or deceived? Lost? I'm not sure what that means. You have not yet found the fulness of the truth of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ may be more pleased with the way you live your life, than he is with the way I live my life, but he still wants me to offer you the truth that I have. It will bless your life. You need to receive the saving ordinances, as only performed in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The sooner you do, the better off you will be. These ordinances are even offered to those who have died and are in the Spirit World. Do you have any idea how much time and energy our church spends researching genealogy and performing vicarious ordinances for the dead in our temples? Why in the world would we do this if our motivation was anything other than pure? What possible gain is there?

Are you deceived? To some extent, yes. You understand an awful lot of truth, but to whatever extent you believe in false doctrines or false biblical interpretations which developed over the centuries, to that extent you are deceived.

Does that mean that I think I know more than you? Sometimes, yes, and sometimes, no. You may have a better understanding of parts of the Bible than I do and you may have better insights than I do into some profound scriptural meanings. I assume I could learn a lot from you and other Christians in this regard. However, I believe there are some important things that I understand that you do not. This would be things concerning the nature of the Godhead, the plan of salvation, the necessity of priesthood and other things only taught in my church.

Do any LDS ever get arrogant because of the things we believe? Probably. Is that a sin? Yes. Is it justified? No.

Are we better than other people simply because we belong to the true restored Church of Jesus Christ? Absolutely not.

 

[tomspug]

If God told an LDS to kill someone (for the glory of God), would they do it?

Genesis 22

Edit: And you're 100% it's God telling you to.

 

[nutshell]

If God told an LDS to kill someone (for the glory of God), would they do it?

Genesis 22

It would probably depend on who that LDS person was. Just as it would depend on who the Christian was ... or the Muslim... etc.

 

[TrueBlue2]

If God told an LDS to kill someone (for the glory of God), would they do it?

Genesis 22

Edit: And you're 100% it's God telling you to.

This feels like a trick question Tomspug. How about if you go first? Would you kill someone if you felt 100% certain that God told you to do it?

 

[Scott C.]

It's quite funny when they are challenged to far, they say,ah ,we really have to go , we have a meeting, someone is waiting for us ...!!! we'll call you,stuff like that.

I will answer any question you have to the best of my ability. I will explain what any scripture you quote means, to the best of my ability. You may ask me a question for which I have no immediate response. Some things I have to think about and research. I may have immediate answers to some questions. So, if I'm asked one question at a time and am allowed to answer one at a time, I'll do it. But, I don't want to feel that I'm wasting my time. If the questioner does not believe that I am giving honest answers, then I'm wasting my time. If the questioner really has no interest in UNDERSTANDING what I believe, but just wants to corner me and prove me wrong, then I'm wasting my time. I don't have to think the questioner is going to convert to my church, but I need to sense that the questioner posesses a degree of humilty and wants to understand what I believe and why I believe it.

 

[PureX]

I don't know a lot about the LDS church. But of what little I do know, the one thing I would most strongly disagree with, and even fear, is the propensity of some LDSers to believe that they get messages directly from God. I believe this is the single most dangerous idea that we humans can fall into, as we are simply not capable of handling divine authority of any kind. And not just in the LDS church, but in any religious groups that succumb to this most heineous version of false idolization, show numerous examples of the atrocities that soon follow.

I would not and could not ever accept any religious doctrine that is based on the idea that God gave a man a message, to then give to the rest of us. It's illogical, irrational, unbelievable, and extremely dangerous.

Sorry, I have nothing against the LDSers, and I've found the few I've met to be intelligent, respectful, and kind. But the religion itself is totally unacceptable to me, for the reason I've stated, if for no other.

 

[tomspug]

It's not a trick question at all. I quoted Genesis 22 because this was something that Abraham did himself, he intended to sacrifice his own son as a burnt offering to God. I like to think I would do the same thing if God asked me to, though I'm not sure I have that much faith. My question implies whether or not an LDS would put faith ABOVE the law.

As a Christian, I believe that because I am saved I am like Abraham and justified by faith. I do not need to fear judgment by the law, especially if God's Word is above that law.

 

[Scott C.]

Sorry, I have nothing against the LDSers, and I've found the few I've met to be intelligent, respectful, and kind. But the religion itself is totally unacceptable to me, for the reason I've stated, if for no other.

I'm not sure what you beieve as Taoist/Christian. I don't believe the prophets of God today are any more entitled to speak for God than were the ancient biblical prophets. I'm not sure if you also have trouble with Christianity for accepting the ancient prophets. To me, there is no difference.

But, I have to agree with part of what you say. There have been nuts who claim to speak for God and are actually crazed lunatics who do terrible things or get their followers to do terrible things. Certainly, it is an important question to determine if a prophet is authentic or not.

 

[nutshell]

It's not a trick question at all. I quoted Genesis 22 because this was something that Abraham did himself, he intended to sacrifice his own son as a burnt offering to God. I like to think I would do the same thing if God asked me to, though I'm not sure I have that much faith. My question implies whether or not an LDS would put faith ABOVE the law.

As a Christian, I believe that because I am saved I am like Abraham and justified by faith. I do not need to fear judgment by the law, especially if God's Word is above that law.

Did you see my answer?


You should also note that the Book of Mormon tells the story of a person who is told by God to kill a certain individual. The person resists at first, but then puts his trust in God.

 

[Katzpur]

I tool her comment as a compliment.

Persistance certainly brought some people I know to the gospel.

Being persistent is one thing. But being a "bugger"? Yuck!

 

[Scott C.]

It's not a trick question at all. I quoted Genesis 22 because this was something that Abraham did himself, he intended to sacrifice his own son as a burnt offering to God. I like to think I would do the same thing if God asked me to, though I'm not sure I have that much faith. My question implies whether or not an LDS would put faith ABOVE the law.

As a Christian, I believe that because I am saved I am like Abraham and justified by faith. I do not need to fear judgment by the law, especially if God's Word is above that law.

I don't know if I have the faith of Abraham to sacrifice one of my children. I believe that if I ever were in Abraham's circumstance, that yes, I should put my faith and trust in God, above the law. I would have to be awfully, awfully certain that it was God, indeed, who was asking me to do it.

 

[Scott C.]

I'm going to take my ball and go home if nobody wants to interact with any of my posts.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know a lot about the LDS church. But of what little I do know, the one thing I would most strongly disagree with, and even fear, is the propensity of some LDSers to believe that they get messages directly from God. I believe this is the single most dangerous idea that we humans can fall into, as we are simply not capable of handling divine authority of any kind. And not just in the LDS church, but in any religious groups that succumb to this most heineous version of false idolization, show numerous examples of the atrocities that soon follow.

I would not and could not ever accept any religious doctrine that is based on the idea that God gave a man a message, to then give to the rest of us. It's illogical, irrational, unbelievable, and extremely dangerous.

Sorry, I have nothing against the LDSers, and I've found the few I've met to be intelligent, respectful, and kind. But the religion itself is totally unacceptable to me, for the reason I've stated, if for no other.

Well, the Bible says that if we lack wisdom, we can ask God in faith and He will respond. I don't know how to get around that one.

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure what you beieve as Taoist/Christian. I don't believe the prophets of God today are any more entitled to speak for God than were the ancient biblical prophets. I'm not sure if you also have trouble with Christianity for accepting the ancient prophets. To me, there is no difference.

But, I have to agree with part of what you say. There have been nuts who claim to speak for God and are actually crazed lunatics who do terrible things or get their followers to do terrible things. Certainly, it is an important question to determine if a prophet is authentic or not.

I'm not a religious Christian, so for me, there are no "prophets". There are human beings who exemplify the healing love and forgiveness of God to themselves and others, and these people I call "Christians", as the term "Christ" refers to the 'logos' of God expressed in the human form. We are all loved and forgiven by God, equally, and we are all invited to be Christians in turn, in this world. There are no special seers, or prophets, and there's no need of them. The love and grace of God is all around us, for any of us to recognize and choose to become a part of if we wish to. And if we don't, that's our choice as well.

Religion is only a tool. If we find it useful, then we're free to use it. If we find it useless, then we can discard it and move on. The spirit of Christianity isn't contained by any religion. It's just part of our reality. Always has been, even before we had words or religious ideologies.

 

[PureX]

Well, the Bible says that if we lack wisdom, we can ask God in faith and He will respond. I don't know how to get around that one.

If we lack wisdom, we won't likely recognize or rightly interpret the response, anyway. My thinking is this:

The truth was never hidden, that it needed prophets and seers to unveil it for us. We simply have our eyes closed most of the time, and so can't recognize it as it's right before us. And none of that matters much, anyway, as the truth remains whether we have our eyes closed to it or not. If we want to stumble around like blind men, that's up to us. We're still loved and forgiven either way.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I would not and could not ever accept any religious doctrine that is based on the idea that God gave a man a message, to then give to the rest of us. It's illogical, irrational, unbelievable, and extremely dangerous.

I'm sorry you feel this way Purex. It's the way it's always been done. God has ALWAYS revealed true principals pertaining to salvation, heaven, hell, the purpose of life, etc. through his living oracles.