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Apostates of Islam

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Odion, I just want to clarify something, when I talk about the Islamic state I mean two things either the "theoretical" Islamic principles and thinking (including contemporary ijtihad) or the practical application of these principles during the prophet's and the rightly guided khalifs' times. When I talk about it, I talk about what I want to see because I don't see these Islamic principles applied rightly in the reality now.

About the dhimmi issue: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/79687-contemporary-islamic-view-dhimmah.html

As for your Coptic friend, I will reply later, isA.
 
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AbuKhalid

Active Member
By the way, may I ask, am I "fighting" Islam right now, by posting what I am posting, in your opinion?
In an Islamic state, would there be grounds for my arrest?

I don't think you are fighting Islam. You are simply opposing it.

In an Islamic state there would be no grounds for your arrest. In fact if you read Islamic history you will see how the scholars would have public debates with non Muslims and those from Muslim sects. It was also the way of the Prophet (SAW) to openly debate those of differing opinion.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Okay, thanks not4me! Would you say that contemporary Islamic societies are not practicing the original message of what Muhammad taught, then? :)

It'll be interesting to hear about your take on what the Copt said (bearing in mind, he wasn't my friend, I just sat next to him on a coach :D). :)
 

.lava

Veteran Member
I don't think you are fighting Islam. You are simply opposing it.

In an Islamic state there would be no grounds for your arrest. In fact if you read Islamic history you will see how the scholars would have public debates with non Muslims and those from Muslim sects. It was also the way of the Prophet (SAW) to openly debate those of differing opinion.

i do not understand AbuKhalid. if someone leaves Islam he deserves death penalty, on the other hand scholars debate with non-Muslims. i do not believe that. if they really want to see apostate dead rather than alive, then i would not expect them to be friendly debaters. you say that you do not think he is fighting against Islam. but what you think would mean nothing when a religious leader announce what he's saying as an attack to Islam. so, all of a sudden, if he was in an Islamic nation, his life would be in the hands of some Muslims who judge him according to their own understanding. is deciding on lives of people so easy? it is not Sharia of Allah that makes it so easy. as a non-Muslim i would not feel safe if i was one. but worst of all, even as a Muslim i would not feel safe. Islam is religion of peace, love and toleration. unfortunately i can not see these qualities in Islamic nations. more than Qur'an, people care about what their religious leaders say. just with plain logic, it seems like they rather want people pretend to be Muslims. because if they honestly say they want to join other belief, punishment of being honest and showing your real colours is death.

.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Odion, I just want to clarify something, when I talk about the Islamic state I mean two things either the "theoretical" Islamic principles and thinking (including contemporary ijtihad) or the practical application of these principles during the prophet's and the rightly guided khalifs' times. When I talk about it, I talk about what I want to see because I don't see these Islamic principles applied rightly in the reality now.

About the dhimmi issue: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/79687-contemporary-islamic-view-dhimmah.html

As for your Coptic friend, I will reply later, isA.


great post that clears up a lot of questions. When you look around at "islamic " societies throughout the world theres not a lot to be proud of really, most of them would be labeled as not even "Islamic" ,in another thread i was discussing the Taliban who claim to be "islamic" but obviously are not. what has gone wrong ? why have so many "Islamic" societies lost their way?
 
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AbuKhalid

Active Member
i do not understand AbuKhalid. if someone leaves Islam he deserves death penalty, on the other hand scholars debate with non-Muslims. i do not believe that. if they really want to see apostate dead rather than alive, then i would not expect them to be friendly debaters.

Its two different issues. I would see an apostate killed but am happy to debate with non Muslims in a friendly matter. So thats proof that the two are not related. This also was the way of the Prophet (SAW) as narrated in the authentic hadiths which are not disputed by any of the Ulaama and which there is no doubt over amongst Muslims except on this forum it seems.

it is not Sharia of Allah that makes it so easy. as a non-Muslim i would not feel safe if i was one. but worst of all,

Why should a non Muslim not feel safe. This is how the Sharia was always practised and they where perfectly safe. Why are you linking the two subjects which are unlinked.

even as a Muslim i would not feel safe.

So within an Islamic state you, despite having no doubts in Islam would personally feel unsafe based on the fact that apostates are punished by death. Doesnt make sense.

unfortunately i can not see these qualities in Islamic nations. more than Qur'an, people care about what their religious leaders say.

No they don't but they recognise the scholars are scholars. They don't believe they can just dismiss the Ijma of the ulamma based upon their own subjective analysis of the Quran.

just with plain logic, it seems like they rather want people pretend to be Muslims.

No. Quran tells us to refer to the scholars. Sunnah tells us to refer to the scholars. So in doing so they wouldn't be pretending anything but rather practicing Islam as it should be.

because if they honestly say they want to join other belief, punishment of being honest and showing your real colours is death.

This was the way of not only the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but all the Prophets.
 

Alla Prima

Well-Known Member
Odion, I just want to clarify something, when I talk about the Islamic state I mean two things either the "theoretical" Islamic principles and thinking (including contemporary ijtihad) or the practical application of these principles during the prophet's and the rightly guided khalifs' times. When I talk about it, I talk about what I want to see because I don't see these Islamic principles applied rightly in the reality now.

About the dhimmi issue: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/79687-contemporary-islamic-view-dhimmah.html

As for your Coptic friend, I will reply later, isA.

I fail to see how it is possible for non-Muslims to have "the same rights and duties as Muslims" as you've penned in your linked post. Saudi Arabia, the heart of Islam, is a perfect example of the mentality perscribed in the Koran. You can trot out a verse here and a verse there which supports the false idea of equality but taken as a whole, as well as individual verse, the Koran's message is clear to any non-Muslim who reads it. Non-Muslims are inferior, unclean beings bound for Hell. They are poisonous to islam and are to be shunned.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Its two different issues.
I would see an apostate killed but am happy to debate with non Muslims in a friendly matter.
So thats proof that the two are not related. This also was the way of the Prophet (SAW) as narrated in the authentic hadiths which are not disputed by any of the Ulaama and which there is no doubt over amongst Muslims except on this forum it seems.



Why should a non Muslim not feel safe. This is how the Sharia was always practised and they where perfectly safe. Why are you linking the two subjects which are unlinked.



So within an Islamic state you, despite having no doubts in Islam would personally feel unsafe based on the fact that apostates are punished by death. Doesnt make sense.



No they don't but they recognise the scholars are scholars. They don't believe they can just dismiss the Ijma of the ulamma based upon their own subjective analysis of the Quran.



No. Quran tells us to refer to the scholars. Sunnah tells us to refer to the scholars. So in doing so they wouldn't be pretending anything but rather practicing Islam as it should be.



This was the way of not only the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but all the Prophets.
just explain to me precisely what would be the requirements that would suit you, to see the death of another human being for apostacy. I apologise if you have already stated this, but i would like it defined precisely.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
Sorry, I don't get your question. Could you expand a little?
Well, maybe I got it wrong as I just jumped into your conversation with .lava, but it seems to me that .lava was talking about a belief:
just with plain logic, it seems like they rather want people pretend to be Muslims.

And you were talking about learning:
No. Quran tells us to refer to the scholars. Sunnah tells us to refer to the scholars. So in doing so they wouldn't be pretending anything but rather practicing Islam as it should be.
But those are not the same as I can be learning about the Islam as well while not being a muslim.
 

AbuKhalid

Active Member
just explain to me precisely what would be the requirements that would suit you, to see the death of another human being for apostacy. I apologise if you have already stated this, but i would like it defined precisely.

"The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it"
Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

That words it better than I could but I would agree with it.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I fail to see how it is possible for non-Muslims to have "the same rights and duties as Muslims" as you've penned in your linked post. Saudi Arabia, the heart of Islam, is a perfect example of the mentality perscribed in the Koran. You can trot out a verse here and a verse there which supports the false idea of equality but taken as a whole, as well as individual verse, the Koran's message is clear to any non-Muslim who reads it. Non-Muslims are inferior, unclean beings bound for Hell. They are poisonous to islam and are to be shunned.


HI
Alla Prima
If i may:
Its pointless to use contemporary examples such as Saudi. She clearly stated "I don't see these Islamic principles applied rightly in the reality now."
there are NO real Islamic states extant today.
 

AbuKhalid

Active Member
Well, maybe I got it wrong as I just jumped into your conversation with .lava, but it seems to me that .lava was talking about a belief:


And you were talking about learning:

But those are not the same as I can be learning about the Islam as well while not being a muslim.

You are correct. I misread what she wrote. My mistake.
 

kai

ragamuffin
"The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it"
Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

That words it better than I could but I would agree with it.


Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .




http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1551942


absolutely incredible,
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Fatihah I did read your whole post. If you look at my post, you will see I didn't suggest that you support death for people who merely change their belief.
And no one (on this thread anyway) is saying you can't use violence to defend yourself from violence. That's a moot point. We can set that aside.
The issue I am dealing with is about apostates who are outspoken about their beliefs (maybe they might persuade some people to leave Islam).
This has nothing to do with someone trying to kill you. Obviously, if someone is threatening to kill anyone, they should be arrested. That is not the scenario I am discussing.

Now, you have said several times the punishment for apostacy is death, "unless the apostate wishes for peace".
It sounds like you are saying that it is assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not.
If they are outspoken about their beliefs, and perhaps persuade people through nonviolent words to leave Islam, is the punishment death, in your view? Even when there is no evidence they are threatening anyone with violence?

Your view is obviously more humane than killing people outright, but even your view that apostates must "wish for peace", in some way that ordinary citizens are not required to do, is still prejudiced and paranoid, i.m.o.

Imagine if the law in the US was that any Christian who becomes an apostates (say he converts to Islam) will be put to death....unless he wishes for peace. Clearly this would be a tool for oppression and intimidation, because you assume people are violent, then threaten them with death, then make them promise they aren't a threat. But you don't do that to ALL people....you don't do it to Muslim apostates.....only Christian apostates. Isn't it obvious that this would serve as an excuse to intimidate, and treat unequally, and humiliate peaceful Muslim political opponents to the state, peaceful Muslim critics and authors and intellectuals, peaceful Muslims in the minority religion?

This is inequality, prejudice, bigotry, paranoia....this is the basis of fascism. The "self-defense" thing can only serve as an excuse for repressing, intimidating, and humiliating peaceful opponents to the State ideology (in this case an Islamic State ideology, but it could just as well be fascism, communism, etc.) As soon as someone expresses an opinion you don't like (apostacy) you assume they are violent maniacs unless they "wish for peace". Of course, this means the authorities pay special attention to investigating apostates. Obviously, if you investigate a certain group of people more, you will convict them of more crimes. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who may have committed just as many minor offenses, are not investigated as thoroughly and may not get convicted of these minor crimes. These are standard, subtle tactics of discrimination and intimidation, fueled by the excuse of "they're trying to kill us!!"

Response: Again, you admittedly said that you have not read the whole post so it would be appreciated if you. That way you would not have the view you have and attribute things and meanings to my post which I clearly have not said.

Just because I said that the punishment for apostasy is death does not mean that, as you have put it," assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not" So please do not add words or meaning because nothing I've said suggests that. I clearly said that the tactic to embrace islam then leave was a war strategy by non-muslims to cause disunity in the muslim community and to get closer to the muslims in order to kill them. Therefore, the death sentence or persecution was ruled on those people. But if they wish to live in peace, then they should be granted peace. Nothing in which I just stated even remotely suggest that all apostates are assumed psychopathetic murderers. If that was the case, then they wouldn't be granted peace if they wished for it because they are psychopathic murderers. Naturally, the more severe a punishment is, the less chances there are in somebody committing the act that leads to the punishment. So the punishment for apostasy is applied not because we assume that apostates are psycopathic murders but to scare off any person who wishes to embrace islam then leave as a tactic to killing muslims.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
All you have to do is read the statements by Muslims on this whole thread to see why I am glad to not be a Muslim. I am hoping that maybe someday Islam will evolve and become a genuinely peaceful religion. Right now it certainly is not one. Fatihah says apostates should not be killed if they ask for peace. I say if a Muslim leaves Islam it is NOBODYS business but his own. It's not the business of an Islamic government or the local Imam or his neighbors, just his own, period.

Response: In a matter of life or death it should be everybody's business.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Fatihah ~

but simply refering to past attrocities is not a valid excuse for cruelty and fear being used as weapons in the present.

Response: But the past is responsible for the present. So it can not be ignored. In order for history to not repeat itself, you should apply the same ruling that caused its prevention in the past if you want the same result for the present.
 
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