Apostates of Islam

[.lava]

Its two different issues. I would see an apostate killed but am happy to debate with non Muslims in a friendly matter. So thats proof that the two are not related. This also was the way of the Prophet (SAW) as narrated in the authentic hadiths which are not disputed by any of the Ulaama and which there is no doubt over amongst Muslims except on this forum it seems.

debate would be made between people who have different opinions. an apostate is someone who have a different opinion. why not debating apostates instead killing them?

Why should a non Muslim not feel safe. This is how the Sharia was always practised and they where perfectly safe. Why are you linking the two subjects which are unlinked.

that's not true. that is not how Sharia is practiced. because Islam was not an ideology before, there are people who force people to live Islam as if it is an ideology just like communism. here, let me summarize what i know;

Sharia of Allah would organize social life. there are also commands of Allah for individuals. for example hijab is a personal duty. which means no authority on Earth have permission to force women to wear hijab or not. it is a command of Allah with no doubt. but personal practices should be made by person him/herself willingly, knowingly as a volunteer. same goes with any personal duty. the other commands that organize social life is there to protect rights of people. so to speak, they are there to punish criminal acts like murder, rape..etc. Sharia that's applied today oppresses people about their personal duties as well. in fact, it is nobody's business but the individual.

yes, i would not feel safe, you ask me why. where do i start? say that i would have a brother 18 years old, he would chose to become Hindu and the system i live under would kill him for that. or my neighbour a woman at 45 years old would be accused for adultery and the system i live under would bury her and then obligate me to throw a stone at her till she dies. i would be charged if i did not. if i try to help my brother or if i defend that woman, i would be assumed as if i was standing against command of Allah. of course it feels insecure. ot because i am less or more Muslim than yourself. only because i love human and there is no way i would join any cruel act because crulty is not welcomed in Islam. Allah does not love those who's cruel and i love Allah.

So within an Islamic state you, despite having no doubts in Islam would personally feel unsafe based on the fact that apostates are punished by death. Doesnt make sense.

does not matter who you put to death sentence was apostate or not. Allah did not give any permission to anyone to take life of someone esle over "thoughts". everyone is free to chose for his own. killing issue gets in the way only when people attack you and your people physically to kill. that means war. so do not think i am defending apostates here, no. this is not about labels we put on people. it is basic human rights. there is no such a thing as rights of apostates or rights of Muslims or rights of Jews...etc. rights of individuals are equal. if it is not, then you can not talk about justice.

No they don't but they recognise the scholars are scholars. They don't believe they can just dismiss the Ijma of the ulamma based upon their own subjective analysis of the Quran.

thats a political issue. i suggest you to read verses of Qur'an that tell about those religious leaders who made people earn hell.

No. Quran tells us to refer to the scholars. Sunnah tells us to refer to the scholars. So in doing so they wouldn't be pretending anything but rather practicing Islam as it should be.

that's not exactly what i was talking about. let's say a man who were born in an Islamic land at certain age feels like he wants to be a Christian. he knows that if he says he leaves Islam he would get killed. say, he is not suicidal. so he rather hides his true belief an he, in public acts like Muslim but in fact h is not. that makes him a munafiq. if he was honest person and if he thinks it is not noble to have two faces and tell the truth about himself then he would get killed. this system you tell us about kills open and honest people. because those who truly want to damage Islamic nations are munafiq people. an apostate on the other hand does not play wicked. he does not hide his thoughts. he tells the truth and gets killed for being honest. honesty is not a dangerious thing if you ask me.

This was the way of not only the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but all the Prophets.

matter of fact, in time of Mohammad (PBUH) unarmed people never got killed. you're wrong about him. he was a mercy to human kind, not a threat, as enemies of Islam try to portrait him to be. take his advice, it is very well known that this times would arrive where Muslims start discussing. so take advice of your Prophet and read Qur'an to find answers. answer is not in any other book. it is in Qur'an.

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[Alla Prima]

HI
Alla Prima
If i may:
Its pointless to use contemporary examples such as Saudi. She clearly stated "I don't see these Islamic principles applied rightly in the reality now."
there are NO real Islamic states extant today.

I think she doesn't see HER version of Islamic principles being applied. From where I'm sitting Saudi Arabia is following (at root) Islamic principles just as the United States is following (at root) it's Consitution.

Not using comtemporary examples for Islam is simply another example of propaganda for western consumption - a way to manipulate public opinion of Islam. Saudi Arabia is reality of Islam - Islam's effect. I would urge all to face this reality because if we keep making excuses and turning a blind eye, nothing will change.

 

[alwayswondering]

I think she doesn't see HER version of Islamic principles being applied. From where I'm sitting Saudi Arabia is following (at root) Islamic principles just as the United States is following (at root) it's Consitution.

Not using comtemporary examples for Islam is simply another example of propaganda for western consumption - a way to manipulate public opinion of Islam. Saudi Arabia is reality of Islam - Islam's effect. I would urge all to face this reality because if we keep making excuses and turning a blind eye, nothing will change.

What, then, are Islamic principles? How can there be different versions?

<Watching the Muslim Olympics (a/k/a the "Who'd a Better Muslim?" game) from where I sit in Egypt.>

 

[ayani]

What, then, are Islamic principles? How can there be different versions?

well, that's a tough question.... in all honesty, Islam and Muslims are a diverse, broad spectrum. all share a deep love and faith in Allah, the Quran, and the prophethood of Mohammed. all share (at least culturally or theoretically) prayers, Ramadam, the hope of going on hajj, and a certain globally recognized Islamic vocabulary (haram, halal, dua, fard, mustahab, masjid, jummah, etc.).

but opinions and interpretations of scripture, law, traditions, faith, practice, and government are often diverse. for example, one asr i attended the nearby mosque, and joined some Muslim sisters upstairs for an informal and spontaneous gathering to read the Quran before prayers began. one lady would read the Arabic, and another would read the English translation. it fell to me to provide, as best i could, a tafsir for the small audience. and we were enjoying ourselves, and enjoying reading the Quran as believers. then, another woman came by, sat down with us, and put a stop to the tafsir, firmly suggesting that it was not up to lay Muslims but scholars to interpret or explain the Quran.

so within our small, imformal group there was one standard of what was ok and Islamically edifying, yet another Muslim woman had a more conservative view.

so views on what is ok Islamically, what is allowed and discouraged can be far from fixed or universal. Islam *is* diverse, yet unified by one Allah, one Quran, and one Muslim identity. a Shia, Sunni, Quran-alone, and Sufic Muslim could all stand up and say "i am as Muslim as anyone else", and in my view they would not have said anything incorrect or invalid.

 

[alwayswondering]

so views on what is ok Islamically, what is allowed and discouraged can be far from fixed or universal. Islam *is* diverse, yet unified by one Allah, one Quran, and one Muslim identity. a Shia, Sunni, Quran-alone, and Sufic Muslim could all stand up and say "i am as Muslim as anyone else", and in my view they would not have said anything incorrect or invalid.

But how can there be differences in opinion in terms of what is allowed (halal), not allowed (haram), and in between if it all comes from one book?

 

[kai]

But how can there be differences in opinion in terms of what is allowed (halal), not allowed (haram), and in between if it all comes from one book?

because like most things Islam, or should i say peoples perception of Islam, is influenced by Culture.

You could say Christianity comes from one book but look at plethora of Christian denominations and sects

 

[alwayswondering]

because like most things Islam, or should i say peoples perception of Islam, is influenced by Culture.

You could say Christianity comes from one book but look at plethora of Christian denominations and sects

But we're not talking about Christianity; the topic of this discussion is Islam.

Again, I ask, how there could be differences in opinion within Islam when its foundation is the Qu'ran.

 

[ayani]

But how can there be differences in opinion in terms of what is allowed (halal), not allowed (haram), and in between if it all comes from one book?

because generally, Islam is also about traditions and rulings and laws and practiced detailed outside the Quran- as recorded in hadith.

two scholars may say two different thing about the same issue. this happens accross the board, in many faith. Buddhism, Islam, within Christian churches, the Jewish world, all over.

and within the Quran-alone community there is not complete agreement as to what certain passages mean, how they are to be taken (literally or symbolically), and how they should be implemented.

 

[kai]

But we're not talking about Christianity; the topic of this discussion is Islam.
i thought it was about diversity in Islam( actually its about Apostacy in Islam)
Again, I ask, how there could be differences in opinion within Islam when its foundation is the Qu'ran.

then read my post again the answer is there, and in Ayanis posts

 

[keithnurse]

Response: In a matter of life or death it should be everybody's business.

If a Muslim decides of his own free will to not be Muslim anymore and to join a different religion, how is that a matter of life or death? I think it is just an individual exercizing his absolute right of religious freedom to leave one religion and join another one. That is no ones business but his own.

 

[keithnurse]

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour&#8217;s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee&#8217;ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .




Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy



absolutely incredible,

Yes, absolutely incredible. This scholar says if you are a Muslim and you decide to not be Muslim anymore, you don't deserve to live! Unfortunately, this scholar correctly understands Islam.

 

[Fatihah]

If a Muslim decides of his own free will to not be Muslim anymore and to join a different religion, how is that a matter of life or death? I think it is just an individual exercizing his absolute right of religious freedom to leave one religion and join another one. That is no ones business but his own.

Response: It's not if he or she decides to live in peace. However, if they do not and try to kill a muslim, then it is a matter of life or death.

 

[Breathe]

Response: It's not if he or she decides to live in peace. However, if they do not and try to kill a muslim, then it is a matter of life or death.

But we don't debate that at all, that's fair enough. This is just a cop-out on your part to equate apostasy with attacking Muslims or Islam in general.

Unfortunately murder, and that's what it, murder, is used against the innocent who simply follow their heart; they aren't going around preaching their new religion or shooting Muslims, they're just living a life following their idea of God, risking death for it. That's not fair, and you should as a human being be able to understand how that's not right, and how the idea of killing someone for leaving Islam in the Name of God Almighty is the most despicable act one can do.

 

[keithnurse]

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .




Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy



absolutely incredible,

Response: It's not if he or she decides to live in peace. However, if they do not and try to kill a muslim, then it is a matter of life or death.

You are going against what Muhammed himself said. He said "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". He doesn't distinguish between those leave Islam and want to live in peace and those who leave Islam and then kill Muslims. He just says point blank "If someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". This proves that Islam is not a religion of peace.

 

[kai]

But we don't debate that at all, that's fair enough. This is just a cop-out on your part to equate apostasy with attacking Muslims or Islam in general.

Unfortunately murder, and that's what it, murder, is used against the innocent who simply follow their heart; they aren't going around preaching their new religion or shooting Muslims, they're just living a life following their idea of God, risking death for it. That's not fair, and you should as a human being be able to understand how that's not right, and how the idea of killing someone for leaving Islam in the Name of God Almighty is the most despicable act one can do.

Indeed! the information posted by AbuKhalid does not mention anything about fighting or war or trying to kill Muslims , It looks pretty clear to me.

 

[.lava]

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .




Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy



absolutely incredible,

all based on hadiths? this is a shame.

dear Muslims, whoever believes this message above is from Allah, please show me verses that approve it. on a such an important issue, as important as a human life, i demand to see which verses of Qur'an back it up. so far i see, verses of Qur'an is not even mentioned. what do you think Qur'an is for? since when hadith books took place of word of Allah?

.

 

[keithnurse]

Lava, it would be really nice if your perspective was prevalent in the Muslim world among Muslims. Unfortunately it isn't. The problem isn't that Muslims misunderstand Islam, it is because so many Muslims, like the scholars at www.islamqa.com DO correctly understand Islam.

 

[.lava]

You are going against what Muhammed himself said. He said "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". He doesn't distinguish between those leave Islam and want to live in peace and those who leave Islam and then kill Muslims. He just says point blank "If someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". This proves that Islam is not a religion of peace.

even though i keep saying that we're told those hadiths are fabricated. Mohammad (PBUH) never said or practiced such a thing.

btw, PLEASE stop insulting my brother by telling him he is going against Mohammad (PBUH). he would not. i would not either. matter of fact, Muslims are defending him SAW by standing against fake hadiths.

.

 

[keithnurse]

even though i keep saying that we're told those hadiths are fabricated. Mohammad (PBUH) never said or practiced such a thing.

btw, PLEASE stop insulting my brother by telling him he is going against Mohammad (PBUH). he would not. i would not either. matter of fact, Muslims are defending him SAW by standing against fake hadiths.

.

Lava, you have already admitted that you are not a scholar and are not trained in science of interpreting Qur'an or science of hadiths. The people who are trained in those matters all say the the hadith "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill hiim" is an authentic hadith that Muhammed really did say. You say Muhammed could not contradict the Qur'an. How do you know? He was only a man, just as human and fallible as the rest of us.

 

[.lava]

Lava, you have already admitted that you are not a scholar and are not trained in science of interpreting Qur'an or science of hadiths. The people who are trained in those matters all say the the hadith "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill hiim" is an authentic hadith that Muhammed really did say. You say Muhammed could not contradict the Qur'an. How do you know? He was only a man, just as human and fallible as the rest of us.

i also said that i am not on my own. and NO; i am not speaking my personal opinion or simply what my heart says even though it matches with our knowledge perfectly. you, on the other hand do not know both sides but you rather believe whatever feeds your hatred for Islam. that is your choice to make. i am not making choices here. as i am commanded to love all human kind, i am also commanded to speak the truth of Islam as we are taught. it is my duty to stand against crulty. that is what make me Muslim, that is what make me a follower of Mohammad (PBUH). this is a fact you might dislike but you need to deal with it because we exist.

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