Apostates of Islam

[Gharib]

I understand Lava. But... it says here to fight against those that do not believe and do not follow Islam. It says nothing about being attacked.

009.029
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

surely you rushed again ey?

 

[.lava]

Ahh but that's not what it said. Merely having a disbliever as a friend makes you a wrong doer.

huh! if i was friends with an English and chat there is nothing wrong but just because i am his/her friend if i join him drinking wine and eating pork that would be wrong. got it? i would not leave cirle of Islam for anyone or for any friendship. that is how it is. in case you do not get it read this verse;

4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

so tell me if we are commanded to leave disbelievers side when they mock verses then come back to them to sit and chat when they changed subject, how could you still defend your argument?

.

 

[Judgment]

yes. so thats exactly what i said.

if my father was not a muslim, he would say to me to leave islam if i converted to it.

so if i took my fathers word then i'm clearly a wrong doer, since my father isn't interested in islam (faith) but rather in disbelief, and i should be taking friends those who are believers, over my father (ie. take their word over my fathers)

is it clear in this way or is it not still?

No Eselam - the verse is stating that you are a wrong-doer if you simply take a disbeliever as a friend.

 

[Gharib]

huh! if i was friends with an English and chat there is nothing wrong but just because i am his/her friend if i join him drinking wine and eating pork that would be wrong. got it? i would not leave cirle of Islam for anyone or for any friendship. that is how it is. in case you do not get it read this verse;

4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

so tell me if we are commanded to leave disbelievers side when they mock verses then come back to them to sit and chat when they changed subject, how could you still defend your argument?

.

thats a nice answer, i never thought of it in that way.

 

[Gharib]

No Eselam - the verse is stating that you are a wrong-doer if you simply take a disbeliever as a friend.

ok you know what, first i'm going to bed, second i will take a good look at those verses and i will let you know about them tomorrow ok.

hope you don't mind

 

[Alla Prima]

The word in Arabic which is translated to friends in the above verse is Awliya (the plural of Wali)and this doesn't really mean friend in the sense English speakers would understand it. It better translates as protectors. For example when a Muslim woman gets married she would have a Wali who is usually her father - friend just doesnt fit.

Clearly the Koran is divisive.


No friends from outsiders

003.118
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

No friends*with Jews, Christians

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

No friends with non believers

004.114
YUSUFALI: In most of their secret talks there is no good: But if one exhorts to a deed of charity or justice or conciliation between men, (Secrecy is permissible): To him who does this, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall soon give a reward of the highest (value).
PICKTHAL: There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) him who enjoineth almsgiving and kindness and peace-making among the people. Whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall bestow on him a vast reward.
SHAKIR: There is no good in most of their secret counsels except (in his) who enjoins charity or goodness or reconciliation between people; and whoever does this seeking Allah's pleasure, We will give him a mighty reward.

003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

 

[.lava]

I understand Lava. But... it says here to fight against those that do not believe and do not follow Islam. It says nothing about being attacked.

009.029
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

says nothing about being attacked? entire surah of Tavba (9) is about war and yes, there can't be war if you're not attacked. those are rules of war. fight those who fight you and protect whoever asks for protection. simple that is.

.

 

[Alla Prima]

huh! if i was friends with an English and chat there is nothing wrong but just because i am his/her friend if i join him drinking wine and eating pork that would be wrong. got it?

I thought there was no compulsion to religion. It appears Muhammd was very worried about losing his flock.

 

[.lava]

No Eselam - the verse is stating that you are a wrong-doer if you simply take a disbeliever as a friend.

4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

you are wrong. we are not allowed to sit and to talk with disbelievers as long as they mock verses. verse says it clearly.

.

 

[.lava]

I thought there was no compulsion to religion. It appears Muhammd was very worried about losing his flock.

you make no sense. what are you saying?

oh Mohammad (PBUH) would worry for entire humanity as he SAW wants everyone to enter heaven instead of eternal fire. therefor he is Mohammad (PBUH) Habibullah!

.

 

[Judgment]

says nothing about being attacked? entire surah of Tavba (9) is about war and yes, there can't be war if you're not attacked. those are rules of war. fight those who fight you and protect whoever asks for protection. simple that is.

.

I was speaking of this verse - it states to fight those that do not believe in Allah. I see nothing about being attacked in the verses around it.

009.029
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I see lots of killing. One must repent and pay a poor-due ? What is this - and why must there be payment of any kind ? Is repenting not enough ?

009.005Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[.lava]

I was speaking of this verse - it states to fight those that do not believe in Allah. I see nothing about being attacked in the verses around it.

009.029
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I see lots of killing. One must repent and pay a poor-due ? What is this - and why must there be payment of any kind ? Is repenting not enough ?

009.005Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

cizre is tax. everyone pays it.

as i said earlier, not every single verse about war has to mention it is about war because you fight others only when there is a war. we are not commanded to attack people out of blue and to start war when there is peace. so to speak, those verses are to be followed when peace was broken by others. specially surah 9. because it is all about war. same surah says that we must protect those who asks for it but it does not say it is about war either.

.

 

[Judgment]

4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

you are wrong. we are not allowed to sit and to talk with disbelievers as long as they mock verses. verse says it clearly..

You are not correct. We are speaking of two different verses. The verse I posted clearly states that you are a wrong-doer for simply having friends that are not believers.

009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

 

[Judgment]

cizre is tax. everyone pays it.

as i said earlier, not every single verse about war has to mention it is about war because you fight others only when there is a war. we are not commanded to attack people out of blue and to start war when there is peace. so to speak, those verses are to be followed when peace was broken by others. specially surah 9. because it is all about war. same surah says that we must protect those who asks for it but it does not say it is about war either.

.

God requires a tax be paid ?

If the unbelievers repent, establish worship and pay the tax - are they then considered Muslim ?

009.011But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.

 

[Judgment]

surely you rushed again ey?

Again you make no rebuttal. In debate - such answers are useless.

I did not rush with the previous verse. The verse(s) do state to kill unbelievers wherever you find them. And.. why does God not state 'Enemy' instead of unbelievers. Does Allah view all 'Unbelievers' as the enemy? In other verses he is clearly speaking of Jews and Christians.

009.030
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

 

[AbuKhalid]

God requires a tax be paid ?

If the unbelievers repent, establish worship and pay the tax - are they then considered Muslim ?

009.011But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.

No. The tax refers to Zakat and it is one of the pillars of Islam. To do this would not make you a Muslim but if you are a Muslim it is one of the things you must do. The verse basically says if they repent and practice Islam as supposed to then they are Muslims. I don't see any issue here.

 

[Alla Prima]

you make no sense. what are you saying?

oh Mohammad (PBUH) would worry for entire humanity as he SAW wants everyone to enter heaven instead of eternal fire. therefor he is Mohammad (PBUH) Habibullah!

.

I would not want Muhammad's heaven nor would I want Allah's heaven. That would be hell to me. No thank you.

 

[Alla Prima]

you make no sense. what are you saying?

I'm saying Muhammad was so worried about losing his flock that he made commands about who Muslims could befriend and who they couldn't.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Clearly the Koran is divisive.


No friends from outsiders

003.118
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

No friends*with Jews, Christians

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

No friends with non believers

004.114
YUSUFALI: In most of their secret talks there is no good: But if one exhorts to a deed of charity or justice or conciliation between men, (Secrecy is permissible): To him who does this, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall soon give a reward of the highest (value).
PICKTHAL: There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) him who enjoineth almsgiving and kindness and peace-making among the people. Whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall bestow on him a vast reward.
SHAKIR: There is no good in most of their secret counsels except (in his) who enjoins charity or goodness or reconciliation between people; and whoever does this seeking Allah's pleasure, We will give him a mighty reward.

003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

So what your arguing is that Wali actually means friend in English? Your 100% sure of that?

 

[Alla Prima]

No. The tax refers to Zakat and it is one of the pillars of Islam. To do this would not make you a Muslim but if you are a Muslim it is one of the things you must do. The verse basically says if they repent and practice Islam as supposed to then they are Muslims. I don't see any issue here.

The issue is the tax creates a sub-class of citizens. Non Muslims within a Muslims society are less than Muslims. Not equal. 'Subdued'.