Apostates of Islam

[AbuKhalid]

The issue is the tax creates a sub-class of citizens. Non Muslims within a Muslims society are less than Muslims. Not equal. 'Subdued'.

Only Muslims pay the Zakat. So they subdue themselves?

 

[England my lionheart]

Maybe he means te Jizya Tax

 

[AbuKhalid]

Maybe he means te Jizya Tax

Maybe he does. He doesn't seem to be even reading the answers given to him. The Muslims pay Zakat and the non Muslims pay Jizya and are also excused from military service.

 

[.lava]

I'm saying Muhammad was so worried about losing his flock that he made commands about who Muslims could befriend and who they couldn't.

Mohammad (PBUH) did not make any commands on his own. those are commands of God and clearly it is one's business to follow them or not.

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[Judgment]

No. The tax refers to Zakat and it is one of the pillars of Islam. To do this would not make you a Muslim but if you are a Muslim it is one of the things you must do. The verse basically says if they repent and practice Islam as supposed to then they are Muslims. I don't see any issue here.

What if they want peace but do not repent, do not establish worship and do not pay the tax ?

 

[England my lionheart]

Maybe he does. He doesn't seem to be even reading the answers given to him. The Muslims pay Zakat and the non Muslims pay Jizya and are also excused from military service.

That is my understanding

 

[.lava]

You are not correct. We are speaking of two different verses. The verse I posted clearly states that you are a wrong-doer for simply having friends that are not believers.

009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

lol what do you think you are to me? an enemy? truth is fellow, a Muslim do not have any enemy. a Muslim do not make anyone his enemy. a Muslim only defends when he is being attacked. that's all.

you are speaking of two different verses OF THE SAME BOOK. i am not allowed to take a few verses and establish a religion on them even if i did that, that religion would not be Islam. it would be my own religion where i take partner (myself) unto Allah. because entire book of Qur'an is what i must follow. yes, there are certain border lines that i would not cross. if you for example have a social life that requires joining with your friends in pubs and have a few beers and chat then yes, you're not gonna find me next to you. i would not go into a bar or pub just to be with you. what's there you do not get? there are different life styles. some of people i know party every weekend. i would not join them either because i have a different life style that i would not do things against commands of God. but when i see them we talk. every once in awhile we call each other to to ask "how are you doing?" it is very well known that i do not go dancing with friends or i do not gather together with females and males to have a picnic. if your style would not let me be me as a Muslim then how could you expect me to be close to you? or in case we have cup of tea and chat and in case every time i met you you insult me and Islam then i would not force myself to be around you. why should i? i rather spend my time with people who show respect to me. and you do not get that?

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[.lava]

What if they want peace but do not repent, do not establish worship and do not pay the tax ?

what happens to you if you take a gun and shoot people, kill them and refuse all the laws in your nation aka you feel free not to pay tax, you are so free to steal, attack..etc?

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[Judgment]

lol what do you think you are to me? an enemy? truth is fellow, a Muslim do not have any enemy. a Muslim do not make anyone his enemy. a Muslim only defends when he is being attacked. that's all.

you are speaking of two different verses OF THE SAME BOOK. i am not allowed to take a few verses and establish a religion on them even if i did that, that religion would not be Islam. it would be my own religion where i take partner (myself) unto Allah. because entire book of Qur'an is what i must follow. yes, there are certain border lines that i would not cross. if you for example have a social life that requires joining with your friends in pubs and have a few beers and chat then yes, you're not gonna find me next to you. i would not go into a bar or pub just to be with you. what's there you do not get? there are different life styles. some of people i know party every weekend. i would not join them either because i have a different life style that i would not do things against commands of God. but when i see them we talk. every once in awhile we call each other to to ask "how are you doing?" it is very well known that i do not go dancing with friends or i do not gather together with females and males to have a picnic. if your style would not let me be me as a Muslim then how could you expect me to be close to you? or in case we have cup of tea and chat and in case every time i met you you insult me and Islam then i would not force myself to be around you. why should i? i rather spend my time with people who show respect to me. and you do not get that?

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I am only going by what I am reading. And what I am reading is pretty clear.

You are giving me your own interepretation - which does not match with the verses.


Please tell me...

How have I lost my own soul ?
(6:12)
"It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe"


If I can not believe except by the will of Allah ? Is it not Allah then - that makes me not believe ?

(10:100)
"No soul can believe except by the will of Allah"

 

[Judgment]

what happens to you if you take a gun and shoot people, kill them and refuse all the laws in your nation aka you feel free not to pay tax, you are so free to steal, attack..etc?

.

My question was...

"What if they want peace but do not repent, do not establish worship and do not pay the tax ? "

To do these things would make them a Muslim. The verse I posted stated that if they do this - all is well. What if they refused ?

 

[.lava]

I am only going by what I am reading. And what I am reading is pretty clear.

You are giving me your own interepretation - which does not match with the verses.


Please tell me...

How have I lost my own soul ?
(6:12)
"It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe"


If I can not believe except by the will of Allah ? Is it not Allah then - that makes me not believe ?

(10:100)
"No soul can believe except by the will of Allah"

i need to check out original text to answer that. we usually translate ego/nafs as soul and Ruh as Spirit. i mean what we call Spirit is what you call soul. so i need to know if verses used the name "nafs". your nafs is another body of yours. so when you do something against commands of God you'd be cruel to your soul, not your Spirit.

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[.lava]

I am only going by what I am reading. And what I am reading is pretty clear.

You are giving me your own interepretation - which does not match with the verses.

i am not trying to interpret because i do not see anything that needs that. i tried to give you examples from my life so by that you might have a point of view. i have friends who happen to be disbelievers. i do not see them very often because what we share is not that much. but they are not enemies.

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[Alla Prima]

Only Muslims pay the Zakat. So they subdue themselves?

I was referring to the Jizya tax levied against non-Muslims.

 

[Alla Prima]

Maybe he does. He doesn't seem to be even reading the answers given to him. The Muslims pay Zakat and the non Muslims pay Jizya and are also excused from military service.

Wasn't Judgement referring to 9:29?

009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[Alla Prima]

Mohammad (PBUH) did not make any commands on his own. those are commands of God and clearly it is one's business to follow them or not.

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You don't really expect me to be Muslim now do you? Perhaps commands from God in Muhammad's mind and yours but certainly not in mine. I don't know who wrote the Koran but it wasn't a god.

 

[.lava]

You don't really expect me to be Muslim now do you? Perhaps commands from God in Muhammad's mind and yours but certainly not in mine. I don't know who wrote the Koran but it wasn't a god.

nope, i really do not expect you to be Muslim but i do expect you to work for peace for goodness of all. as long as you point Islam the religion as your enemy instead of people who determined to rule over other people, you won't be serving peace of this world. cos not just bunch of people who's leading masses in the direction they want, you'd have 1.3 billion people against you. yes i do expect you to embrace Muslims but you can't do that fighting against Islam.

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[Alla Prima]

nope, i really do not expect you to be Muslim but i do expect you to work for peace for goodness of all. as long as you point Islam the religion as your enemy instead of people who determined to rule over other people, you won't be serving peace of this world. cos not just bunch of people who's leading masses in the direction they want, you'd have 1.3 billion people against you. yes i do expect you to embrace Muslims but you can't do that fighting against Islam.

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The Islam I and many many non-Muslims clearly see should be all our enemy not just mine. All 1.3 billion Muslims should stand up and demand a better Islam. Stop being brainwashed and open your eyes to the tyranny of Islam. It's your religion not mine. You do something about it. Don't point your finger at me. Point it at Islam. Islam's the problem not me. Fix it. All you and almost every Muslim I talk to say the same thing. Islam is perfect. Well if it was so perfect we wouldn't have all these problems in the world caused by Muslims who follow the so called perfect religion. Any time Islam rubs up against anything non-Islamic there's friction. The problem is Islam not me or the world. Wake up.

 

[Gharib]

The Islam I and many many non-Muslims clearly see should be all our enemy not just mine. All 1.3 billion Muslims should stand up and demand a better Islam. Stop being brainwashed and open your eyes to the tyranny of Islam. It's your religion not mine. You do something about it. Don't point your finger at me. Point it at Islam. Islam's the problem not me. Fix it. All you and almost every Muslim I talk to say the same thing. Islam is perfect. Well if it was so perfect we wouldn't have all these problems in the world caused by Muslims who follow the so called perfect religion. Any time Islam rubs up against anything non-Islamic there's friction. The problem is Islam not me or the world. Wake up.

did you think of that all by yourself, thats impressive. or is it

 

[AbuKhalid]

My question was...

"What if they want peace but do not repent, do not establish worship and do not pay the tax ? "

To do these things would make them a Muslim. The verse I posted stated that if they do this - all is well. What if they refused ?

Then they continue to be fought. They either become Muslims or pay Jiziyah.

 

[AbuKhalid]

who is a Muslim?

a Muslim is;

1-someone who believes Qur'an is word of God.
2-someone who believes there is only one God.
3-someone who believes Mohammad (PBUH) is Prophet and messenger of God.

I really have to disagree as your definition here is that of the Murjiah. A persons Islam is not simply based on belief as you claim but actions also. Islam itself means submission which suggests the carrying out of proscribed acts. Some of these acts if ignored put one out of the fold of Islam even if they believe the 3 points you listed above. I will give two examples which I hope will make my point clear.

The first is that of Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet. When he was on his death bed the Prophet kept urging him to say La Ilah Il Allah. Abu Talib admitted that he believed the message but out of pride and fear that the Quraish would say he was weak and changed his religion on his death bed he refused and so dies a kaffir. Now if we went by the 3 points you gave then he would be a Muslim which is not the case. This also happened for other Quraish who admitted they knew the Prophet was correct yet they didnt become Muslim out of pride.

The second example is that of Satan. Satan believes there is only one God, that the Quran is the word of God and the Muhammad is the Prophet of God. He knows this but just chooses to rebel against it. So it should be clear that your definition cannot be correct in that it would conclude that Satan is a Muslim.

do you see anything about sunni or shia so far, Kai? there is only one book that's known as word of God. verses and commands there has never changed. but there are sections like sunni, shia...etc. the reason for this, people left Qur'an. instead they practice what this or that Imam said. in other words what they practice is an ideology, no Islam. each section believe they are the right path but Qur'an says none of them are on the right path. Qur'an calls all those who follow sections instead of Qur'an Mushrik.

How did the Sunni leave the Quran and who remained with it? I pointed out before that if Islam breaks into sects then this doesnt condemn them all because one would have stayed on the correct path. Sunni is just a word used to differentiate those who remained on the path of the Prophet from those who split away. The Prophet(SAW) said that Islam would split into 73 sects and 72 of them would go to hell. So the conclusion is that one sect won't.

Lets look at the Shia-Sunni split. The Shia decided to remove itself from the main body of Muslims. The Sunni opposed this and called for unity however the Shia broke away anyway. This split thus created two sections of Islam, but as the Sunni tried to avoid this and never changed their beliefs then how does this condemn them for being made into a section against their will?

As Islam is split then we all belong to a sect despite the fact that some may deny this. What sect is defined by your beliefs. Sometimes it is necessary to talk about them by name as to fail to do so would cause great confussion. Now if we denied that there are any sects we could say:

Islam recognises Abu Bakr as the first Caliph
and
Islam says Abu Bakr was an usurper who stole the Caliphate and he cursed and destined for hell.

Now if we said that it would seem we are saying the opposite which we would be. So it is necessary for clarity to say the Sunni believe the first and the Shia the second.