Apparently, the religious on RF don't even know the difference between good and bad.

[Scott1]

Aye, but didn't the Lord your God command "Thou shall not kill"? Is God's Word not enough? Or do you require more justification ?

Are you sure you've read the CCC?

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7

 

[Vile Atheist]

Are you sure you've read the CCC?

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7

The difference being the Ten Commandments supposedly came from God while the CCC came from human deliberation. So does human deliberation trump God's morality?

 

[Mister Emu]

Aye, but didn't the Lord your God command "Thou shall not kill"?

Or it could have been "Thou shalt not murder"...

 

[Scott1]

The difference being the Ten Commandments supposedly came from God while the CCC came from human deliberation. So does human deliberation trump God's morality?

No... human reason "trumps" the mistaken idea that a text can interpret itself.

 

[MoonWater]

From your earlier post.



I will say it again. You have no idea what I want to hear.

How is what I said making a claim as to knowing what you want to hear? All I said was that you haven't heard the answer you want to hear but that doesn't automatically translate to "I know what you want to hear", just "I know what you apparently don't want to hear"(knowing something is not red doesn't automatically mean you know it is blue). Now yes the latter is an assumption but it is one reached based on the fact that you are painting religious people here with a large brush simply because only 1 or 2 of the religious people you have spoken with on this forum have given you an answer that you found satisfactory. If I have made an incorrect assumption then perhaps you should correct my mistake by telling me just what it is you DO want to hear, just what do you hope to accomplish by accusing the religious on RF of being unable to tell the difference between good and bad?

 

[MoonWater]

Is it as absurd as a forum full of religous folks who refuse to say what is a good action and what is an evil one? I honest can't believe that you guys won't answer this. Jesus was quite clear on several actions that were good and several that were evil. What's the big deal?

Well for one thing religion is not limited to Christianity and Jesus.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Religious folks on RF seem to be completely incapable of determining what actions are morally good and what actions are morally bad. I find this astounding! Do you?

As proof, can anyone here give just ONE example of an action that is considered good? One that is considered evil? I'm not trying to trick you. I just asked this in another thread and zero point zero people could give a direct response.

Morally good: helping little old ladies cross the street.

Morally bad: helping little old ladies cross the street and then robbing them.

Bad: stubbing my toe. :sad4:
Good: when my mommy kisses my stubbed toe to make it feel better. :hearts:

 

[Vile Atheist]

No... human reason "trumps" the mistaken idea that a text can interpret itself.

What is there to interpret? God put it plain as day in the Bible: "Thou shall not kill". It doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. He even put it in English for us to understand .

Interesting how he doesn't follow his own rules. And commands other people to break them. But meh. Whatever works.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find it a bit too simple a question....

To give my opinion if an act is morally good or evil I need more information. To call an action evil, I would need to know if it was committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

"Good or evil" speaks to the actor and not the act.

So, I take it from your response that you do not believe it is possible to have moral rules. Is that right?

 

[Beaudreaux]

If I have made an incorrect assumption then perhaps you should correct my mistake by telling me just what it is you DO want to hear, just what do you hope to accomplish by accusing the religious on RF of being unable to tell the difference between good and bad?

OK, let me give this a try.

I want to hear...examples of what religious people consider to be good actions and examples of what they consider to be bad actions. I HAVE NO HIDDEN AGENDA. There are several threads going on right now about the problem of evil and an omnimax God. In these threads there is much discussion about the nature of Good and Evil. I thought it might be refreshing and illuminating for people to give concrete examples (rather than abstract dissertations) about what a good or evil action is.

Maybe it will help if I lead off.

• Good action: I have a neighbor who has recently broken his leg. While he is rehabilitating, I have been mowing his lawn for him because he is unable to do so. Such a kindness (increasing human happiness) is a good action.
• Good action: My 3 year old son jumps into the neighbor's pool at a party while no one is looking. I see this and leap in to pull him out before he drowns. My action is a good action [reduce human suffering. save a life]
• Bad Action: A man is hit by a car in front of my house. I see that he is injured, in agony and crying for help. My house is in the country and no one else sees this man. Instead of calling 911, which would be easy for me to do, I walk outside and watch him bleed to death as he cries to me for help. That's a bad action (increases human suffering and loss of life).

Anyone else feel like sharing?

 

[Kathryn]

Actions aren't good or bad - people's intentions are either good or bad. Maybe that's why you're having a hard time getting a good answer - you didn't really give a good question to start with (no offense intended).

Sometimes good intentions create bad outcomes - but there is less culpability in those situations -because the person did not CHOOSE to do evil.

There are degrees of culpability:

Ignorance
Lack of understanding
Irresponsibility
Careless disregard for others
Pettiness
Callousness
Ruthlessness
Hatred
Rage

Just to give some examples.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Actions aren't good or bad - people's intentions are either good or bad. Maybe that's why you're having a hard time getting a good answer - you didn't really give a good question to start with (no offense intended).

Sometimes good intentions create bad outcomes - but there is less culpability in those situations -because the person did not CHOOSE to do evil.

There are degrees of culpability:

Ignorance
Lack of understanding
Irresponsibility
Careless disregard for others
Pettiness
Callousness
Ruthlessness
Hatred
Rage

Just to give some examples.

How do you feel about "]the examples I gave?

 

[Enoch07]

Beware. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Beware. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I thought the road to hell was paved with unbought stuffed dogs.....

 

[Storm]

Actions aren't good or bad - people's intentions are either good or bad. Maybe that's why you're having a hard time getting a good answer - you didn't really give a good question to start with (no offense intended).

Sometimes good intentions create bad outcomes - but there is less culpability in those situations -because the person did not CHOOSE to do evil.

Kathryn, are you familiar with Babylon 5? I seem to recall that you are.... Anyway, assuming you have a clue what I'm talking about, what do you think of Londo Mollari?

 

[Autodidact]

The concept of slavery in Halakha includes the consent of the person entering into the contract.

No it doesn't, or it wouldn't be slavery. Here's what the scriptures actually say:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Nothing about consent in there. It says you can buy foreigners, they will be your property, you can will them to your children. This does not apply to other Israelites, because, like most of the Tanakh, the theme is to treat members of your tribe well, and others horribly.
[/FONT]

 

[Autodidact]

I find it terrible that you read the Torah and that's all you see.

Don't make assumptions.

In any case, you were asserting that the point of Torah is to tell us to love one another, but the actual books repeatedly command God's people to slaughter other people wholesale. Do you consider annihilating people to be loving? If you love your baby, do you stab it to death?

It is wrong to enlist the service of a person without their consent.

So slavery is wrong, then, or right? I'm getting contradictory views from you.

 

[Autodidact]

Aye, but didn't the Lord your God command "Thou shall not kill"? Is God's Word not enough? Or do you require more justification ?

No, He didn't. He ordered us not to commit murder. Unfortunately, He forgot to tell us what killing is murder, so it's not very helpful.

 

[Rayne]

I've not read this entire thread, so I don't know if you have a special definition of good or not, so I'm just going to go with this: Good: Helping an old lady load her groceries. Evil: Running that old lady down, while she puts her own groceries away in the blistering heat of the day.

Also, when you say "religious" you are opening a very big door. If you only mean Christians, it would be a good idea to state that.

 

[Perfect Circle]

No it doesn't, or it wouldn't be slavery. Here's what the scriptures actually say:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Nothing about consent in there. It says you can buy foreigners, they will be your property, you can will them to your children. This does not apply to other Israelites, because, like most of the Tanakh, the theme is to treat members of your tribe well, and others horribly.
[/FONT]

Yeah, I'm not seeing anything about consent in there either...