Apparently, the religious on RF don't even know the difference between good and bad.

[Beaudreaux]

I've not read this entire thread, so I don't know if you have a special definition of good or not, so I'm just going to go with this: Good: Helping an old lady load her groceries. Evil: Running that old lady down, while she puts her own groceries away in the blistering heat of the day.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Increasing human happiness through kindness is good. Increasing human suffering/sorrow is bad. I like it! Why would anyone disagree with this?

Also, when you say "religious" you are opening a very big door. If you only mean Christians, it would be a good idea to state that.

I meant all religious folks. I was having a hard time getting ANYone to do the simple thing you just did. I don't think it's that tough to go over the difference between good actions and bad actions, but it's like pulling teeth on RF.....

 

[Beaudreaux]

Actions aren't good or bad - people's intentions are either good or bad. Maybe that's why you're having a hard time getting a good answer - you didn't really give a good question to start with (no offense intended).

Please feel free to include intentionality in the examples. For example:

A person genuinely wants to help his neighbor who was recently disabled in a car accident. With nothing but love in his heart, he mows the neighbor's lawn and helps out with the outdoor chores his neighbor can no longer do.
​

Would that qualify?

 

[Enoch07]

No, He didn't. He ordered us not to commit murder. Unfortunately, He forgot to tell us what killing is murder, so it's not very helpful.

Nah its specified. Its all about intent. Whether you are defending or attacking.

For instance soldiers fighting in a war. It is not murder when they kill an enemy in combat. It is not murder to defend your self/family/friends and kill an oncoming attacker.

Murder is the killing of another human being with intent or malice forethought.

Its common sense actually. Why people don't understand the difference between self defense and murder is beyond me.

 

[Autodidact]

Nah its specified. Its all about intent. Whether you are defending or attacking.

For instance soldiers fighting in a war. It is not murder when they kill an enemy in combat. It is not murder to defend your self/family/friends and kill an oncoming attacker.

Murder is the killing of another human being with intent or malice forethought.

Its common sense actually. Why people don't understand the difference between self defense and murder is beyond me.

So for example, after the Israelites had already won the battle, killed the men and taken all the women prisoners, and God ordered them to go back and kill the babies, that would clearly be murder, right?

btw, would you cite the verses that lay this out? Thanks.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Nah its specified. Its all about intent. Whether you are defending or attacking.

For instance soldiers fighting in a war. It is not murder when they kill an enemy in combat. It is not murder to defend your self/family/friends and kill an oncoming attacker.

Murder is the killing of another human being with intent or malice forethought.

Its common sense actually. Why people don't understand the difference between self defense and murder is beyond me.

I agree. I once heard it succintly put that murder is "wanton" killing. Not to be confused with "wonton" killing which is both more difficult and messy than it sounds.....

 

[Vile Atheist]

So for example, after the Israelites had already won the battle, killed the men and taken all the women prisoners, and God ordered them to go back and kill the babies, that would clearly be murder, right?

btw, would you cite the verses that lay this out? Thanks.

I lol'd.

 

[McBell]

Murder is the killing of another human being with intent or malice forethought.

Where did you get this particular definition?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not trying to trick you.

Of course you are, and I'm not answering because I'm not willing to play the game. It's an old one and I caught on to it really fast the first time someone else asked this question.

 

[Enoch07]

So for example, after the Israelites had already won the battle, killed the men and taken all the women prisoners, and God ordered them to go back and kill the babies, that would clearly be murder, right?

btw, would you cite the verses that lay this out? Thanks.

Think I can find it. Would you mind listing the book/verses of the story your using as an example?

 

[Enoch07]

Where did you get this particular definition?

Hebrew root of murder btw is the word 2026 in Strong's concordance: harag, pronounced haw-rag'; a prim. root; to smite with deadly intent.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Of course you are, and I'm not answering because I'm not willing to play the game. It's an old one and I caught on to it really fast the first time someone else asked this question.

Well, help a brother out then. What dastardly clever trick do I have in mind?

 

[Willamena]

As "moral" means knowing the difference between good and bad, isn't "morally good and morally bad" tautology?

 

[Autodidact]

Think I can find it. Would you mind listing the book/verses of the story your using as an example?

Numbers 31:

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. ... The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 1They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. ... Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 1"They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

[Autodidact]

So for those who have answered, it seems like the theme is that kindness is moral, and cruelty, or deliberately inflicting suffering, is immoral, correct?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nah its specified. Its all about intent. Whether you are defending or attacking.

Where is this spelled out?

For instance soldiers fighting in a war. It is not murder when they kill an enemy in combat. It is not murder to defend your self/family/friends and kill an oncoming attacker.

Murder is the killing of another human being with intent or malice forethought.

So... war is never waged with intent or malice aforethought? War can never be murder? The way you've set up your defintions, "murder" and "killing an enemy in combat" aren't mutually exclusive.

And you alluded to some sort of moral distinction between defending and attacking; does this apply in combat as well? What about an operation that's an attack in tactical terms but defensive in strategic terms... for example, bombing an enemy's oil refinery to stop his invasion of your country?

Its common sense actually. Why people don't understand the difference between self defense and murder is beyond me.

I don't think that's the issue; for me, it's that I recognize, say, stoning a criminal or a disobedient son as murder, yet the OT simultaneously gives approval of these actions while giving a blanket prohibition on murder generally. The two things contradict each other.

I agree. I once heard it succintly put that murder is "wanton" killing. Not to be confused with "wonton" killing which is both more difficult and messy than it sounds.....

The definition I usually go by is that "murder" is illegal killing. It depends on the law to define itself.

 

[Enoch07]

Numbers 31:

In that case it is not murder. If you read the story entirely you will see that God commanded them to death for intentionally spreading a plague killing many. As per the order of God, those who slay by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Simply put if you are a murderer you need to be put to death.

 

[Enoch07]

So... war is never waged with intent or malice aforethought? War can never be murder?

Never said that. You are jumping to conclusions. As stated clearly above it depends on whether you are the attacker or defender and your intent.

Hypothetical: If I am at home and someone breaks in. I shoot the guy in the chest and he drops to the ground. I immediately call 911 get paramedics and police over but the intruder dies nonetheless. In that case I have done nothing wrong either in the eyes of the God's law or man's. Now same situation but instead of dialing 911,I watch him bleed to death on my carpet just for spite, then call for help after he dies. In that case it is murder in the eyes of God and breaks mans laws.

 

[Autodidact]

In that case it is not murder. If you read the story entirely you will see that God commanded them to death for intentionally spreading a plague killing many. As per the order of God, those who slay by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Simply put if you are a murderer you need to be put to death.

I find that frequently OT defenders respond to these genocidal passages by making things up. Here's the real reason, as stated in the real Bible:

The LORD said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites.

The reason was vengeance. What was the vengeance for? It's very weird. It's because God decided to stop spreading plague after a Midianite woman walked by with an Israelite man, after the Israelite men had been consorting with Moabite women. The whole story is here. Here's the money line:

The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor.

Just to clarify: God spread a plague because he was mad about Israelites consorting with Moabites, a Midianite woman was seen with an Israelite man, so God decreed vengeance against all Midianites. Totally weird.

And as a result, you're saying that it was just to slaughter Midianite newborn babies? Is that your idea of justice?

Frankly, you religionists sicken me.

 

[Autodidact]

In that case it is not murder. If you read the story entirely you will see that God commanded them to death for intentionally spreading a plague killing many. As per the order of God, those who slay by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Simply put if you are a murderer you need to be put to death.

Who did the newborn baby boys murder? And how?

 

[Willamena]

Hypothetical: If I am at home and someone breaks in. I shoot the guy in the chest and he drops to the ground. I immediately call 911 get paramedics and police over but the intruder dies nonetheless. In that case I have done nothing wrong either in the eyes of the God's law or man's.

Well, actually you have. It's called manslaughter.