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Archaeology and the Bible

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I understand what you are saying. But, IMV, it still isn't applicable.

If I find a history book that talks about the Civil war, I just can't throw it in the garbage just because Homer wrote about Troy and used real cities.
No, but what might you do if that "history" book also listed a bunch of miracles, like a battle being won because a troop of Orcs came over the hill and helped out the bad guys?

The book of Job, on the other hand, is clearly mythical, and was written for the purpose of conveying a moral message -- very much like Aesop would have done. We don't believe foxes talk and like grapes, but we learn something from the story without supposing it to be true. I would say that a lot of the Bible is clearly just like that -- (the Exodus and the Flood) for example, and even quite a great deal that purports to being historical. Just as a f'rinstance, the "history" of the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites is just such a story. The Israelites simply derived from the Canaanites, and then invented a history for themselves to explain why they were now different from their former brothers.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I'd say the correct one would be in the original Hebrew script.
Transliteration can be a pretty subjective art.
There is no 'original' Hebrew anthology with an 'original' title in "original Hebrew script."

And, while we're at it, please learn what the word 'transliteration' means.​
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No, but what might you do if that "history" book also listed a bunch of miracles, like a battle being won because a troop of Orcs came over the hill and helped out the bad guys?

The book of Job, on the other hand, is clearly mythical, and was written for the purpose of conveying a moral message -- very much like Aesop would have done. We don't believe foxes talk and like grapes, but we learn something from the story without supposing it to be true. I would say that a lot of the Bible is clearly just like that -- (the Exodus and the Flood) for example, and even quite a great deal that purports to being historical. Just as a f'rinstance, the "history" of the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites is just such a story. The Israelites simply derived from the Canaanites, and then invented a history for themselves to explain why they were now different from their former brothers.
You mean miracles like this one? Im supposed to throw out this history because there is a miracle?

Historian Catherine Drinker Bowen on the possible invasions of the US by the French on October 16, 1746:
The Governor [of Massachusetts, Shirley] had proclaimed a Fast Day to pray for deliverance from this present peril. Everywhere men observed it, thronging to the churches.

In Boston the Reverend Thomas Prince, from the high pulpit of the Old South Meeting-house, prayed before hundreds. The morning was clear and calm, people had walked to church through sunshine. “Deliver us from our enemy!” the minister implored. “Send Thy tempest, Lord, upon the waters to the eastward! Raise Thy right hand. Scatter the ships of our tormentors and drive them hence. Sink their proud frigates beneath the power of Thy winds!”

He had scarcely pronounced the words when the sun was gone and the morning darkened. All the church was in shadow. A wind shrieked round the walls, sudden, violent, hammering at the windows with a giant hand. No man was in the steeple — afterward the sexton swore it — yet the great bell struck twice, a wild, uneven sound. Thomas Prince paused in his prayer, both arms raised. “We hear Thy voice, O Lord!” he thundered triumphantly. “We hear it! Thy breath is upon the waters to the eastward, even upon the deep. Thy bell tolls for the death of our enemies!” He bowed his head; when he looked up, tears streamed down his face. “Thine be the glory, Lord. Amen and amen!”

Amen and amen! said Massachusetts, her hope renewed. All the Province heard of this prayer and this answering tempest. Governor Shirley sent a sloop, the Rising Sun, northward for news. The Rising Sun found the French fleet south of Chebucto [now Halifax Harbor] and got chased for her pains. But she brought news so good it was miraculous — if one could believe it. . . . Two of the largest French frigates had sunk in a storm, they said, on the Isle of Sable. The whole fleet was nearly lost, the men very sick with scurvy or some pestilential fever. Their great admiral, the Duc d’Anville, was dead.

A week later the news was confirmed by other vessels entering Boston from the northeastward. D’Anville was indeed dead; it was said he had poisoned himself in grief and despair when he saw his men dying round him. Two thousand were already buried, four thousand were sick, and not above a thousand of the land forces remained on their feet. Vice-Admiral d’Estournelle had run himself through the heart with his sword.(1)

Yet on the 16th, the remaining forces pressed forward on their voyage with plans to lay waste to New England. Rev. French writes:

On this great emergency, and day of darkness and doubtful expectation, the 16th of October was observed as a day of Fasting and Prayer throughout the Province. And, wonderful to relate, that very night God sent upon them a more dreadful storm than either of the former, and completed their destruction. Some overset, some foundered, and a remnant only of this miserable fleet, returned to France to carry the news. Thus New England stood still, and saw the salvation of God.(2)

Bowen declares:

Pestilence, storm and sudden death — how directly and with what extraordinary vigor the Lord had answered New England prayers!

The country fell on its knees. Pharaoh’s hosts overwhelmed in the Red Sea were no greater miracle. A paper with d’Anville’s orders had been found, instructing him to take Cape Breton Island, then proceed to Boston — “lay that Town in Ashes and destroy all he could upon the Coast of North America; then proceed to the West Indies and distress the Islands.”

Storm and pestilence — why, it was like the destruction of the Spanish Armada! Governor Shirley said so, to the Massachusetts Legislature assembled. Never had there been so direct an interference of Providence. “Afflavit Deus,” said Shirley, “et dissipantur — The Lord caused the wind to blow and they were scattered.” A day of Thanksgiving and prayer was proclaimed. From every pulpit the good news rang. Hip and thigh, the Lord had smitten the Philistines. There was no end to the joyful quotation: If God be for us, who can be against us?(3)

The Thanksgiving Day was observed on November 27, 1746. Thomas Prince was one of the many pastors who preached a sermon on that day. Later printed, this sermon, entitled “The Salvations of God in 1746,” recounts the defeat of the French Fleet. Prince makes much of the remarkable coincidence that it was on the day of their fast that God

put a total end to their mischievous enterprise. . . . Thus when on our solemn Day of General Prayer we expressly cried to the Lord, “Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered, . . .” then his own Arm brought Salvation to us and his Fury upheld him. He trode down our Enemies in his Anger, he made them drunk in his Fury, and he brought down their Strength to the Earth. Terrors took hold on them as Waters: A Tempest bore them away in the Night: The East Wind carried them away, and they departed; and with a Storm he hurled them out of their Place.(4)

We have need of the same mighty God moving on our behalf today. But for this to occur, we have need of the faith and heart of these early Americans. Their example shows us, in the words of President Ronald Reagan in a National Day of Prayer Proclamation, May 6, 1982, “that it is not enough to depend on our own courage and goodness; we must also seek help from God, our Father and Preserver.”
  1. Catherine Drinker Bowen, John Adams and the American Revolution, Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1951, pp. 10-11.
  2. French in The Christian History of the American Revolution, Consider and Ponder, p. 51.
  3. Bowen.
  4. Thomas Prince, “The Salvations of God in 1746,” in Love, 305-306. See also p. 532 for complete sermon title and various printings.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You mean miracles like this one? Im supposed to throw out this history because there is a miracle?

Historian Catherine Drinker Bowen on the possible invasions of the US by the French on October 16, 1746:
Well obviously a great miracle! Who ever heard of a storm happening all by itself, without the direct intervention of God! (Kind of makes it hard to explain the destruction caused by Katrina, though...have to think about that a little further.)
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
That is the old minimalist claim. It is shallow and far from a consensus among archaeologists. You might wish to read, for example, ...


by Avraham Faust.
There are other fine historians who disagree:

Finkelstein, Israel. "Ethnicity and origin of the Iron I settlers in the Highlands of Canaan: Can the real Israel stand up?." The Biblical archaeologist 59.4 (1996): 198-212.
Finkelstein, Israel. The archaeology of the Israelite settlement. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1988.
Finkelstein, Israel, and Nadav Naʼaman, eds. From nomadism to monarchy: archaeological and historical aspects of early Israel. Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi, 1994.
Finkelstein, Israel. "The archaeology of the United Monarchy: an alternative view." Levant 28.1 (1996): 177-187.

Finkelstein, Israel, and Neil Asher Silberman. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Sacred Texts. Simon and Schuster, 2002.

And that last book (The Bible Unearthed) is a fine one, which I've read twice.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no 'original' Hebrew anthology with an 'original' title in "original Hebrew script."

And, while we're at it, please learn what the word 'transliteration' means.​
Sorry. I confess I don't know the etymology of the term. I assumed it was a Hebrew word with a standardized spelling.

I think I'm using "transliteration" with the same meaning as your usage in post #60. I was trying to say that transliteration from Hebrew to Latin script isn't entirely standardized, so that you'll sometimes see alternate spellings for the same word.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well obviously a great miracle! Who ever heard of a storm happening all by itself, without the direct intervention of God! (Kind of makes it hard to explain the destruction caused by Katrina, though...have to think about that a little further.)
In this house the destruction caused by Katrina "the hurricane cat" is pretty well understood. It's always interesting coming home to find what "rearrangements" she's made. :rolleyes:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
There are other fine historians who disagree:

Finkelstein, Israel. "Ethnicity and origin of the Iron I settlers in the Highlands of Canaan: Can the real Israel stand up?." The Biblical archaeologist 59.4 (1996): 198-212.
Finkelstein, Israel. The archaeology of the Israelite settlement. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1988.
Finkelstein, Israel, and Nadav Naʼaman, eds. From nomadism to monarchy: archaeological and historical aspects of early Israel. Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi, 1994.
Finkelstein, Israel. "The archaeology of the United Monarchy: an alternative view." Levant 28.1 (1996): 177-187.

Finkelstein, Israel, and Neil Asher Silberman. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Sacred Texts. Simon and Schuster, 2002.

And that last book (The Bible Unearthed) is a fine one, which I've read twice.
:D

You folks are so predictable. Have you read anything by Finkelstein since The Bible Unearthed?

A suggestion: pick up The Quest for the Historical Israel: Debating Archaeology and the History of Early Israel.

About the text:

Three decades of dialogue, discussion, and debate within the interrelated disciplines of Syro-Palestinian archaeology, ancient Israelite history, and Hebrew Bible over the question of the relevance of the biblical account for reconstructing early Israel’s history have created the need for a balanced articulation of the issues and their prospective resolutions. This book brings together for the first time and under one cover, a currently emerging “centrist” paradigm as articulated by two leading figures in the fields of early Israelite archaeology and history. Although Finkelstein and Mazar advocate distinct views of early Israel’s history, they nevertheless share the position that the material cultural data, the biblical traditions, and the ancient Near Eastern written sources are all significantly relevant to the historical quest for Iron Age Israel. The results of their research are featured in accessible, parallel syntheses of the historical reconstruction of early Israel that facilitate comparison and contrast of their respective interpretations. The historical essays presented here are based on invited lectures delivered in October of 2005 at the Sixth Biennial Colloquium of the International Institute for Secular Humanistic Judaism in Detroit, Michigan.

Sadly, I had every intention of attending but the Jewish holidays intervened.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Well obviously a great miracle! Who ever heard of a storm happening all by itself, without the direct intervention of God! (Kind of makes it hard to explain the destruction caused by Katrina, though...have to think about that a little further.)
:)) YUP! And it always seems to happen when people are in prayer...

Are you saying that Katrina manifested because people were praying for it to come?

Apples and oranges
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Well obviously a great miracle! Who ever heard of a storm happening all by itself, without the direct intervention of God! (Kind of makes it hard to explain the destruction caused by Katrina, though...have to think about that a little further.)

Moses?? :D

There is a difference between God doing something and nature just doing what it does.

What you really are saying is "I just don't believe". My point was that I don't throw out history just because there was a "miracle". You don't see it as one, but they sure did at that time.

We can ask God later whether it was His intervention or not.
 
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Fire_Monkey

Member
Why is it remarkable when major historical events and places, that would have been known to everyone at the time, get mentioned in contemporary writings?
What I do find remarkable are the major errors and the borrowed mythology that found its way in.
I'm always amazed at how many times Kansas weather confirms the tornadic activity reorted by L. Frank Baum in the Wizard of Oz.


Awesome example. And a nice way to tell the OP that his discovery mentioned just warrants a big fat So what? Of course some archeological finds are going to corroborate that some places mentioned in the Bible really existed. Big whoop. The thing is, there have never been any finds that prove any of those absurd miracles occurred. Seas torn in two...Dead Jewish carpenter rising from the dead....God stopping the sun in the sky so his boys can continue their slaughtering....Shrubbery bursting into flames....Manna raining from the skies for forty years. The Exodus never happened, btw.

Those are the fables that demand evidence. Who cares if some old structures were found. In Greece they find old ruins all the time. Does this mean Zues really lived and tossed Thunderbolts from Olympus? LOL
 

Thumper

Thank the gods I'm an atheist
...
The book of Job, on the other hand, is clearly mythical, and was written for the purpose of conveying a moral message -- very much like Aesop would have done. We don't believe foxes talk and like grapes, but we learn something from the story without supposing it to be true. I would say that a lot of the Bible is clearly just like that -- (the Exodus and the Flood) for example, and even quite a great deal that purports to being historical. Just as a f'rinstance, the "history" of the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites is just such a story. The Israelites simply derived from the Canaanites, and then invented a history for themselves to explain why they were now different from their former brothers.
It is interesting to note that the Bible and Aesop's Fables were both written at about the same time period (between 620 and 564 BCE).
 

Thumper

Thank the gods I'm an atheist
No, but what might you do if that "history" book also listed a bunch of miracles, like a battle being won because a troop of Orcs came over the hill and helped out the bad guys?
...

It is also interesting to note that the incident of miracles is inversely proportional to the availability of camera phones.
 

Thumper

Thank the gods I'm an atheist
Awesome example. And a nice way to tell the OP that his discovery mentioned just warrants a big fat So what? Of course some archeological finds are going to corroborate that some places mentioned in the Bible really existed. Big whoop. The thing is, there have never been any finds that prove any of those absurd miracles occurred. Seas torn in two...Dead Jewish carpenter rising from the dead....God stopping the sun in the sky so his boys can continue their slaughtering....Shrubbery bursting into flames....Manna raining from the skies for forty years. The Exodus never happened, btw.

Those are the fables that demand evidence. Who cares if some old structures were found. In Greece they find old ruins all the time. Does this mean Zues really lived and tossed Thunderbolts from Olympus? LOL
Hey now. I've been to King's Cross Station in London. Doesn't that mean that Harry Potter is real?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
:D

You folks are so predictable. Have you read anything by Finkelstein since The Bible Unearthed?

A suggestion: pick up The Quest for the Historical Israel: Debating Archaeology and the History of Early Israel.

About the text:


Sadly, I had every intention of attending but the Jewish holidays intervened.
Okay, but what are you saying is in that book that contradicts what I've been saying? Finklestein and Mazar aren't really very far apart from one another, and overall, their message is that ancient Israelites were a mixture of Canaanites with other races that developed its culture and religion in Canaan two millennia B.C.E. (approximately). Not, as the Bible would have it, some other race of conquerors wiping out the Canaanites. (Except for the virgin females who they kept for what I'm sure were perfectly honourable purposes. Perhaps decorations...who knows?) Hebrew, by the way, derives from Canaanite language groups.
 
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