psychoslice
Veteran Member
All stories in the bible are based on certainly events, that doesn't mean that Archaeology proves those stories are true.
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Archaeology and the Bible
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
No they not apples and oranges, Ken. In many ways, you appear to think like the old priests of pagan religious who, when they prayed for rain or crops or whatever, when they didn't get what they wanted, decided that they had done the rituals incorrectly -- and when it did rain and the crops grew, knew they'd done a good job and the gods had answered.) YUP! And it always seems to happen when people are in prayer...
Are you saying that Katrina manifested because people were praying for it to come?
Apples and oranges
The problem, of course, is that sometimes it rains and sometimes it doesn't -- the world isn't quite as regular as we'd like to think. But it gets you nowhere to count the "hits" as proofs of god, and the "misses" as proofs of human error. This is the same kind of thinking, by the way, that leads people to superstitiously suppose that "everything happens in threes!" Do you know why they think that? It's because they count to three, say "see, I told ya!" and then start counting again.
What better proof could you ask for, really?
Cobol
Code Jockey
When discussing the alleged existence of Jesus Christ, one piece of "evidence" that frequently gets mentioned is the account of Flavius Josephus.
It has been demonstrated continuously over the centuries that "Testamonium Flavium" was a forgery manufactured by the Catholic Church, and was inserted into Josephus's works. The Testamonium Flavium account is so thoroughly refuted, that biblical scholars since the 19th century have refused to refer to it, unless to mention its false nature.
Archaeological evidence is either nonexistent or considered highly questionable in peer reviewed biblical studies literature.
The field of biblical archeology is replete with claims and findings that were later discredited.
In 1979, archaeologist Andre Lemaire announced the discovery of a pomegranate, carved from a hippopotamus tooth, that had the inscription "Belonging to the Tem[ple of the Lord [Yahweh], holy to the priests." Researchers later found that although the pomegranate itself was authentic, the inscription was a recent forgery.
In 2002, Oded Golan, an Israeli engineer and antiquities collector, announced the discovery of a chalk box, typically used for containing bones of the dead in 1st century Palestine, that had the inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." But other researchers who examined the item concluded that the inscription was a recent forgery. In December 2004, Golan was charged with forgery, fraud and deception.
A researcher in Jerusalem announced the discovery of a black stone with 15 lines of text written in paleo-Hebrew letters, which includes mention of Jehoash, a king who ruled in Judah from 836 to 798 BCE. But subsequent analysis found that the lettering and patina were artificially created, and thus the tablet is a modern forgery.
A 2007 announcement of the finding of a tomb with the bones of Jesus' family was subsequently rejected by knowledgeable archaeologists.
The 2012 announcement of the discovery, on an ancient scrap of papyrus, of the "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" has been criticized by scholars, with some suggesting it is a forgery.
In 2006, Robert Cornuke, a self-described biblical investigator, announced the discovery of "boat-shaped rocks" near the summit of Mount Suleiman in Iran's Elburz mountain range. But analysis by professional geologists found that the claimed artifacts were simply iron-stained sedimentary rocks, laid down in a marine environment eons ago.
The 480-year period given in 1 Kings 6:1 for the Exodus to the foundation of Solomon's temple appears inconsistent with the genealogical record in 1 Chron. 2:1-15, which gives only ten generations from Judah (the brother of Joseph and Levi) to David (Solomon's father, born roughly 1040 BCE).
There is still no clear archaeological evidence for Moses or the Exodus in Egyptian records, but on the other hand the Egyptians seldom mentioned setbacks or defeats in their records, so perhaps this is not surprising.
Many writers of the "minimalist" or "Copenhagen" school of biblical scholarship, popular during the 1990s and 2000s, have argued that much of the Old Testament, and essentially all of the history prior to the Babylonian captivity in 586 BCE, is a fictional creation of later Jewish writers.
Many devout believers will be disappointed to learn that there is no clear, contemporary archaeological evidence for many other key figures and events in the Bible
It has been demonstrated continuously over the centuries that "Testamonium Flavium" was a forgery manufactured by the Catholic Church, and was inserted into Josephus's works. The Testamonium Flavium account is so thoroughly refuted, that biblical scholars since the 19th century have refused to refer to it, unless to mention its false nature.
Archaeological evidence is either nonexistent or considered highly questionable in peer reviewed biblical studies literature.
The field of biblical archeology is replete with claims and findings that were later discredited.
In 1979, archaeologist Andre Lemaire announced the discovery of a pomegranate, carved from a hippopotamus tooth, that had the inscription "Belonging to the Tem[ple of the Lord [Yahweh], holy to the priests." Researchers later found that although the pomegranate itself was authentic, the inscription was a recent forgery.
In 2002, Oded Golan, an Israeli engineer and antiquities collector, announced the discovery of a chalk box, typically used for containing bones of the dead in 1st century Palestine, that had the inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." But other researchers who examined the item concluded that the inscription was a recent forgery. In December 2004, Golan was charged with forgery, fraud and deception.
A researcher in Jerusalem announced the discovery of a black stone with 15 lines of text written in paleo-Hebrew letters, which includes mention of Jehoash, a king who ruled in Judah from 836 to 798 BCE. But subsequent analysis found that the lettering and patina were artificially created, and thus the tablet is a modern forgery.
A 2007 announcement of the finding of a tomb with the bones of Jesus' family was subsequently rejected by knowledgeable archaeologists.
The 2012 announcement of the discovery, on an ancient scrap of papyrus, of the "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" has been criticized by scholars, with some suggesting it is a forgery.
In 2006, Robert Cornuke, a self-described biblical investigator, announced the discovery of "boat-shaped rocks" near the summit of Mount Suleiman in Iran's Elburz mountain range. But analysis by professional geologists found that the claimed artifacts were simply iron-stained sedimentary rocks, laid down in a marine environment eons ago.
The 480-year period given in 1 Kings 6:1 for the Exodus to the foundation of Solomon's temple appears inconsistent with the genealogical record in 1 Chron. 2:1-15, which gives only ten generations from Judah (the brother of Joseph and Levi) to David (Solomon's father, born roughly 1040 BCE).
There is still no clear archaeological evidence for Moses or the Exodus in Egyptian records, but on the other hand the Egyptians seldom mentioned setbacks or defeats in their records, so perhaps this is not surprising.
Many writers of the "minimalist" or "Copenhagen" school of biblical scholarship, popular during the 1990s and 2000s, have argued that much of the Old Testament, and essentially all of the history prior to the Babylonian captivity in 586 BCE, is a fictional creation of later Jewish writers.
Many devout believers will be disappointed to learn that there is no clear, contemporary archaeological evidence for many other key figures and events in the Bible
Debateable
Member
No, instead you chose to believe in magical beings that for some reason had tons of contact with people for generations and suddenly decided to be a no show for the rest of time.
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Fair enough. You think you know Finkelstein's position. You think you know Mazar's position. You think you know the Bible's position. And I suspect that all this certitude has been achieved with a minimum of study and a maximum of selection bias. I, on the other hand, have behind me a bookshelf full of material, and I still find myself impressed by the discoveries and nuanced interpretations that continue to arise. You clearly have me at a disadvantage.
And, on top of everything else, you know how to use a search engine. Count me underwhelmed.
You've dated the entire Tanakh to 620-564 BCE.
And what are your credentials?
Well, you are of course welcome to disparage me, as you see fit (which I did not to you, by the way). Or you could try to tell me what it is I'm saying that you disagree with. My preference, of course, would be for the latter.
I went back through the thread, and on Page 1 (didn't note the post number) you said: "This has been addresses an inordinate number of times. Despite incessant and shallow attempts to ridicule it, the Exodus Narrative remains powerful and there is good reason to believe that it has historical roots."
Unfortunately, however, you did not say what that "good reason to believe" in historical roots consists of. Why don't you, then, try to tell me that. The Tanakh story takes us from an apparently non-Canaanite beginning in Jacob and his 12 sons, to 400 years of slavery in Egypt, to emancipation in Moses and then Joshua, to the conquering (or presumably redemption, I suppose) of "the Promised Land," Canaan.
Turn around, pick something from your bookshelf full of material, and give us some of nuanced interpretations that convince you that this is more true than what Finklestein, Mazar and others are saying. That's what I've been doing, by the way.
And it will absolutely not make your argument strong to slag me again. Just present a reasoned argument, based on such data as you think is appropriate.
Yes, I long ago discovered that I didn't know everything, or that the things I thought I knew I could not recall. Before there were search engines, I went to the library and searched. I presume that you would disparage that activity, too?
I think you are looking in the wrong places. I remember looking into a Tom Collins drink wondering about where are those miracles that I had heard about. Well, I didn't find it in the drink... but after I accepted Jesus, I seem to see them everywhere.
WOW!!! You found all the forgeries... and the expense of listing those that were not (with a couple of double statements within your list).
Is this bias on steroids?
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Amazing yes, but there's no supernatural element to it. And even if it had been foretold, it qualifies as a self-fulfilling prophesy--spurred by external hatred. And archaeology had nothing to do with it either except to remind the Jews of their history.
How so what? Could you be more specific.
I disagree--historically all people dispersed were absorbed by the culture the lived in (let alone be able to keep their language). But your position is quite normal spurred by your philosophical paradigm. And to think that the United Nations also decided to self fulfill the prophecy. Incredible!!
A friend of mine has an inoperable brain tumor with four months to live. Received prayer and it disappeared. We call it a miracle, you would call it sudden reversal naturally caused by the body and say "it happens all the time".
LOL - I don't have time to research 5 pages to find context.
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Debateable
Member
OMG prayer removes cancer?! Why are all of these doctors looking for a medical cure then? All we have to do is pray and nobody will ever die of cancer again!
To be real now. Sometimes things happen that cannot yet be explained. You call it a miracle but it's just something that isn't scientifically understood yet. If prayer actually made things happen then why does anyone ever die from cancer? I'm sure 99% of those people have received prayer. Where are their miracles? God only likes to save 2% of those that are "unable to be saved"?
My sister, her husband and two daughters are about as religious as it gets. Explain to me why it was important to god to have her 9 year old daughter die in her sleep. Seeing that group of people from her church explain away that she had already "done her work" and god wanted her back was both sad and disturbing.
I have a challenge for you. I have a friend with inoperable cancer. He has stage 4 lung cancer (never smoked a day in his life) and it has metastasized to his bone marrow. Inoperable and expected to die within months. Pray for him. If he becomes cured then maybe I'll hear you out. I won't be holding my breath...
Funny how prayer doesn't work to restore severed limbs, but does work for those diseases that can go into remission.
I'd suggest you just participated in a stronger intoxicant.
You have just proved my point. No matter what, you don't want to believe...
God did not want a 9 year old die in her sleep and "church explain away that she had already "done her work" and god wanted her back was both sad and disturbing." is a bunch of cow paddies. Satan, the thief and the murderer from the beginning, is the only one that kills 9 year olds. Sorry the church opened their mouths and spewed vomit.
So sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you. (I lost a niece through suicide)
And Jesus threw out those who acted without faith before he resurrected a child. I would suggest you start using faith for your friend. Holding your breath won't help him live, it will help him die.
Damn it! Is it truly so difficult to actually inform oneself on a subject before pontificating on it? Isn't it obvious that these puffed up proclamations serve only to impress the ignorant?
It really is infuriating, particularly since the information is so readily available. I usually reference Kirby when discussing TF but the following is easily found and should be more than adequate:
PS:
- It's Testimonium Flavianum, not "Testamonium Flavium."
- Worth reading is Alice Whealey's Josephus on Jesus, The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times
I did... it's called God.
Well, at least the belief in such. And, I might add, just as prone to produce delusions.