Are all believers in God automatically idol worshipers?

[Greatest I am]

God never promised that our lives would be free from trials or despair.

Biological error or malady are responsible for the images in the video.

Explain how your video relates to my post.

God is seem by most theists as our creator and sustainer.

I took it that your God was our creator. If not, then we are all creators.

Is your God responsible for those biological abominations or are we all God's co-creators?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

He was definitely not giving facts. Considering that I study Talmud daily for hours a day, and the man in your video is a Messianic, I'm pretty sure I'm quite a bit more qualified to make statements about what the Rabbis of my own religion do.
Considering your man is making the statement, he needs to back it up with some proof. I can't bring proof of the rabbis not overriding Biblical law, because that's impossible. You can't bring evidence of an absence.
Any serious student of the Talmud knows that the rabbis only override Biblical Law due to other Biblical Laws and not on their own volition. The man in your video, needs an excuse to argue that Jesus could override Biblical Law, so he fabricated this concept.

Hogwash.

Do you not recall Jesus overruling the Sabbath law when he stopped his people, Jews, from stoning a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

He said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

I extrapolate from that that he would also say that God was created for man and not man for God.

Logic and reason make that clear as the powerful are to serve us and not us weak humans serve the all-powerful who has no needs that we can possibly fill.

Do not think like Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Come on that isn't fair. The video is over 2 hours long and has misunderstandings about Pharisees, perhaps many. Post your information in text or nobody is responsible to refute it.

Read my last comment for the proof I see in the bible of the facts given.

Think of the Jewish Divine Council.

God, to the ancient Jews, was always a man. The emperors also thought so as they named themselves Gods and their sons, sons of God.

Do not be an Abraham and follow an infanticidal God. Such a God is not worth spit.

Regards
DL

 

[Brickjectivity]

Read my last comment for the proof I see in the bible of the facts given.

Think of the Jewish Divine Council.

God, to the ancient Jews, was always a man. The emperors also thought so as they named themselves Gods and their sons, sons of God.

Do not be an Abraham and follow an infanticidal God. Such a God is not worth spit.

Regards
DL

Thanks! Ok, I watched the video and considered your statements. You are seeing evil where there is none. The Pharisees did claim to sit in Moses seat, however the Pharisees (and other Jews) did not see God as a man, nor did they conceive of themselves as the LORD. I will explain as best I can.

The opening post is sweeping and attempts to describe many different viewpoints as only one viewpoint in order to peg them together and label them trash. You are doing the same thing again, grasping an idea that occurs to you which you find convenient and so applying that idea as if it were so. In the process you imagine something nefarious that isn't there and mistakenly accuse. There are good people, and the Jews who wrote the Bible were some. They were not conspiring to replace God.

Having watched the video, I consider your statements but Jews including the Pharisees did not consider God to be a man. Consider, for a tiny example, Psalm 100:3 "Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture." This is a song that declares that the divine is not a human. What they actually did was to attempt to align themselves with God increasingly via their divine council, keeping Torah and being refined in the furnace of affliction. This was an attempt to better themselves, drawing ever closer to the LORD which was like a hot, blazing melting fire, a ball of truth or pure reality that destroyed anything which came too close. Men were comparatively like shadows on the wall. 'The LORD' was an ideal, far above what people could aspire to. The men were not 'The LORD' nor did they ever conceive of the divine as human. They did consider that some were better aligned than others. This was the meaning of the seat of Moses -- that those who drew near to the LORD should be consulted. Where you seem to see a power grab, I do not; because I'm somewhat familiar with the history. Jesus could, however, correctly claim that the Takanot were over-reaching. This did not by any stretch mean that the divine council claimed to be the divine God. Judges were called gods using the Hebrew word el. As one become more just they aligned with the LORD. 'God' referred to any just authority, particularly an authority on justice and this was not idolatry. For example, Moses was like God to Pharoah according to Exodus 7:1. This did not mean that Moses was literally the LORD, but it implied that Moses was morally superior to Pharaoh by leaps and bounds. Above all it was morality, not physical strength or power that made a person greater.

Thanks for that great video. The man's (Nehemia Gordon) explanation of the Takanot and Jesus objections to the Takanot were very helpful, although in the video I think the man had a few misunderstandings about the stories in the Talmud. I deeply appreciated his bringing to light the Hebrew Mathew of Shem-Tov ibn Shiprut. It was very significant, and I particularly appreciated hearing the Hebrew version of the famous "Thou art Peter" passage. That was extremely helpful. All of it was helpful. I appreciated his clarifications about Jesus objections to some of the Pharisee teachings.

 

[Acim]

If theists have direct knowledge of God, they are sure silent about it.

Especially Christians who would then be true believers as Jesus said that any such believer could do all he did and more.

The Christians you are talking about are not doing so and would if they could. All good people would.

Regards
DL

Silence is generally golden. Knowledge of equality with Christ carries great benefit, but also can stand diametrically opposed to (so called) knowledge of the world. Where idol 'worship' is down to a taxonomical science.

 

[Tumah]

Hogwash.

Do you not recall Jesus overruling the Sabbath law when he stopped his people, Jews, from stoning a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

He said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

I extrapolate from that that he would also say that God was created for man and not man for God.

That exactly proves my point. Jesus wasn't a rabbi. His sermons do not indicate the position of the rabbis on anything. In fact, if anything they represent the opposite of the position of the rabbis. Its smacks of lack of education on the issue to assume that the rabbis held the same position as Jesus did.

Logic and reason make that clear as the powerful are to serve us and not us weak humans serve the all-powerful who has no needs that we can possibly fill.

Do not think like Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Regards
DL

Whatever...

 

[metis]

One really can't know if Jesus being referred to as "rabbi" is being used just in reference to him being a teacher or more in the the context of a more formal reference in regards to being more formally trained in one of the Pharisee schools. To me, the latter seems less likely.

 

[Greatest I am]

The men were not 'The LORD' nor did they ever conceive of the divine as human. They did consider that some were better aligned than others. This was the meaning of the seat of Moses -- that those who drew near to the LORD should be consulted.
.

It is he who made us,

To this last. I do not think the Jews, one of the most logical and intelligent people in the world, have ever thought that the sex they were having was not them creating themselves.

I do not see Jews as accepting a supernatural entity as God and that is shown with Jacob fighting with God. I think that Israel, which means strive with God, also means to strive against God. That is how religious progress and thought is done and that is why Jews reject the 10 Commandments and came up with their own set with over 300.

To your first.

There is nothing divine that has not been labelled so by a human. Divine is something one seeks but is always a mystery.

Here is the information that leads me to this conclusion. As you can see, I am looking at the old customs and noit the modern and polluted ones.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

As to Moses. Note that when asked who his God was, he replied, I am. That is the same name, other than Good, that Gnostic Christians give to God and when we use it we do mean ourselves. I believe that the Jews used it the same way. Jesus also said that before Abraham, I am, which tells me that Jesus was saying that his theology he was placing before Abraham's. That I do not read as his saying he actually lived before Abraham.

I see Jesus as a reformer of Jewish law. His saying that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, when Jews wanted to stone a man for working, as his putting man's law above God's.

I extrapolate from his Sabbath quote as also saying that religions and Gods are created for mankind, by mankind, and not by an outside force.

If that were not so, there would only be the 10 Commandments and not the 300+ that the Jews themselves wrote.

I do recognize that even in Jewry there are a number of varying belief but this one resonates with me because I am a Gnostic Christian and perpetual seeker after God. God defined as the best rules and laws to live life by.

To seek anything or any supernatural entity would be a waste of good time and I do not see Jews as a nation that would waste it's time seeking a master as I do not see Jews as wanting to be slaved to some one unchanging ideology.

I hope I am correct but it is hard to know this far up the time line and with Jewry, like all the other religions as divided as they have all become.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Silence is generally golden. Knowledge of equality with Christ carries great benefit, but also can stand diametrically opposed to (so called) knowledge of the world. Where idol 'worship' is down to a taxonomical science.

Insightful.

No argument.

I do have a fair bit of opposition.

Regards
DL

 

[dawny0826]

God is seem by most theists as our creator and sustainer.

I took it that your God was our creator. If not, then we are all creators.

Is your God responsible for those biological abominations or are we all God's co-creators?

Regards
DL

I believe that God created life and set life into motion.

I also believe that creation was tainted by sin and **** happens.

The majority of lost pregnancies occur naturally and as a result of chromosomal defect.

Science is as real of a "force" as is God. Biological processes aren't without flaw.

You're certainly entitled to the opinion that God is responsible for such flaws.

Even if He was, it doesn't negate the natural explanations for such flukes nor does it negate His love.

 

[Greatest I am]

That exactly proves my point. Jesus wasn't a rabbi. His sermons do not indicate the position of the rabbis on anything. In fact, if anything they represent the opposite of the position of the rabbis. Its smacks of lack of education on the issue to assume that the rabbis held the same position as Jesus did.


Whatever...

So this last is how you give an argument. Ok.

Strange that you would think that a God who has all that he would ever desire instantly, with a desire to be served instead of serving. You put your own desires into the God you idol worship.

What you see as Jesus' lack of education, I see as a progressive thinker trying to teach idol worshipers to advance their laws intelligently instead of just following ancient so called wisdom.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

One really can't know if Jesus being referred to as "rabbi" is being used just in reference to him being a teacher or more in the the context of a more formal reference in regards to being more formally trained in one of the Pharisee schools. To me, the latter seems less likely.

How you view Jesus as a Rabbi or teacher would depend more on what you think of his teachings.

There are a number of Jesus' in scriptures. There is the Western one that would slave us to Rome/government, and there is the Western mystic that has us seek God within ourselves and not some guy in the sky. That Jesus wanted to elevate man, not debase his to being less than his own governor.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I believe that God created life and set life into motion.

I also believe that creation was tainted by sin and **** happens.

The majority of lost pregnancies occur naturally and as a result of chromosomal defect.

Science is as real of a "force" as is God. Biological processes aren't without flaw.

You're certainly entitled to the opinion that God is responsible for such flaws.

Even if He was, it doesn't negate the natural explanations for such flukes nor does it negate His love.

Yes it does.

As above so below.

Would the love you have for mankind allow you to do nothing but watch such abominations grow? Love would force you to act, --- would it not?

The little bit of love I have would.

I see though that you see God as the God of the Gap which is where those who recognize evolution at work have put God. That is your faith and a position taken without any evidence at all.

Regards
DL

 

[metis]

How you view Jesus as a Rabbi or teacher would depend more on what you think of his teachings.



Regards
DL

Within the different Pharisee schools, the procedure was to take what had been previously written and taught within that school and then expand upon that, while also giving credit to those who preceded. Tumah I believe just referred to that a few days ago. Outside of those schools, it's a different story.

So, it's not a matter of what one may "think" as much as there was a given procedure to be followed within these schools. Again, @Tumah is much more knowledgeable about this than I am, so hopefully he'll chime in

 

[Brickjectivity]

To this last. I do not think the Jews, one of the most logical and intelligent people in the world, have ever thought that the sex they were having was not them creating themselves.

I don't know anything about that, but marriage and reproduction were and still are very important. Where some say they see a fertility cult, I see someone embracing the principle of life for a good purpose, wishing to harness the power of the seed towards better life for future generations. Look at how every plant dies, but the seeds retain the life of an entire plant. The ancient wise one asks "How can we pass the seed of wisdom to each generation, so that it becomes a fruitful and full grown plant?" Ask yourself how you feel about the fact that we strive all our lives to become wise only to die at the end. They probably saw that life was a cycle, and so they studied cycles both their own and those in nature, and it appears they studied it for the sake of seeing an end to suffering. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes talk about nature's cycles and attempt to borrow patterns of wisdom from them to be applied as advice for living. The Biblical terms branch, root, horn, seed etc. all point to the principle of the cycle, something that we ourselves seek to harness in modern times. When David's 'Horn is lifted up' this isn't talking about him being horny. It means something else and is exponentially better and is about something of lasting value.

I do not see Jews as accepting a supernatural entity as God and that is shown with Jacob fighting with God. I think that Israel, which means strive with God, also means to strive against God. That is how religious progress and thought is done and that is why Jews reject the 10 Commandments and came up with their own set with over 300.

So we are talking about personal theories. Of course we are. What they discovered, rather than 'An entity' was that there was something that was difficult to describe, perhaps a principle or perhaps a person or force. It made plants reproduce. It brushed against them whenever they made the effort to encapsulate wisdom and to find the most harmonious way to live, but it couldn't be named and was invisible. To harness the power of the seed they had to live in harmony like a tree. Psalm 1 describes law keepers as 'Trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD'. In seeking harmony they discovered all things were in harmony, and it seems likely that was also when they encountered God. When the Israelites were overrun by Babylon the captives they didn't give up, because they had discovered something better than countries and better than lineages. They compared notes with the Babylonians and adapted. This was religious thought and progress, for good purpose and for the sake of hope in a better future.

To your first.

There is nothing divine that has not been labelled so by a human. Divine is something one seeks but is always a mystery.

That there are mysteries I admit and also mysteries within those, but I think that the ancient Jews (as well as the later Christians) believe everything about the Divine that can be known, can only be known through nature. I don't think that they begin as gnostics at all. The LORD speaks to Moses through a burning bush, through wind, through earthquakes etc. I suspect, crudely, that gnosticism originally relies upon the seed concept, that it is thought that wisdom is already in the person and merely grows like a plant. The descriptions in Iranaeus of hierarchies and archons etc are probably just semantic mumbo jumbo, possibly even slander.

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

I see this statement of the Golden Rule as consistent with my understanding.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

I should read Origen. I think that you can read the Torah and try to understand it from a practical perspective. In it you can see harmony and love, protection for the weak, an attempt to live as a single organism, to imitate the secret principle by which things reproduce. In it you see how God was discovered, not quite by accident.

As to Moses. Note that when asked who his God was, he replied, I am. That is the same name, other than Good, that Gnostic Christians give to God and when we use it we do mean ourselves. I believe that the Jews used it the same way. Jesus also said that before Abraham, I am, which tells me that Jesus was saying that his theology he was placing before Abraham's. That I do not read as his saying he actually lived before Abraham.

I understand what you are saying about Jesus quotation, but the tetragrammaton can be considered an aggregate of three syllables that read 'Was' 'Is' 'Will be'. This is not really a secret. Its just something that is so common that it has become boring and then been forgotten. The Name, the Torah and everything associated with it is part of the story of how God was discovered, detected, found, indicated. Why does God interact with people when we seek harmony? I don't know, but what I do know I know through nature, and these scriptures are like lab notes.

Let me quote something, and this may not at first seem to be in context; but I believe I am putting it right: "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."(I Peter 1:11). What did the prophets search? Here Peter is pointing out that the Prophets are like explorers, discovering what the divine is. They do it for our sake. They are like spelunkers. The history of the discovery of God is not a silly progression from polytheism towards monotheism but is a logical study of nature leading to an appreciation of harmony and the incidental discovery of God. No doubt the discoverers are somewhat surprised.

I do recognize that even in Jewry there are a number of varying belief but this one resonates with me because I am a Gnostic Christian and perpetual seeker after God. God defined as the best rules and laws to live life by.

I think that Jesus makes a gnostic statement when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a seed, and I suspect it is also a Jewish statement, not an innovation.

I see Jesus as a reformer of Jewish law. His saying that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, when Jews wanted to stone a man for working, as his putting man's law above God's.

I extrapolate from his Sabbath quote as also saying that religions and Gods are created for mankind, by mankind, and not by an outside force.

As you have pointed out, not everything can be taken literally. Clearly God's law is hidden or we could use it to create life, like Frankenstein's monster. Everything is in God. Every secret is in there, so we want to get those secrets out. Not only is wisdom like a seed, but God is like a seed. Everything is in God.

In the above quote you are looking at Jesus merely as a reformer of human laws. That is very far from what he wants to be. He is, possibly, commenting about the nature of wisdom. This entire exchange between a sect of Pharisees and Jesus is about the future of Judaism. It assigns blame to the Pharisees for a failure to reproduce. It isn't just about reforming laws. Jesus calls these Pharisees sons of Caine. He says their disciples are always twice as bad as they are (perhaps not literally). He's not even trying to label the Pharisees as evil (though if you are unfamiliar with Pharisees you might think so). This story is about Christianity, the addition of gentiles, grafting gentiles onto Israel. Israel is the tree and the gentiles are grafted on. Its got all kinds of flavors going on in it. Its very complicated, so that I am not sure I can follow all the threads in it.

I do recognize that even in Jewry there are a number of varying belief but this one resonates with me because I am a Gnostic Christian and perpetual seeker after God. God defined as the best rules and laws to live life by.

To seek anything or any supernatural entity would be a waste of good time and I do not see Jews as a nation that would waste it's time seeking a master as I do not see Jews as wanting to be slaved to some one unchanging ideology.

I hope I am correct but it is hard to know this far up the time line and with Jewry, like all the other religions as divided as they have all become.

I don't know for sure. What I think is that the Bible isn't nefarious or written to make everybody subservient. The Christian writers like James believe the opposite, that freedom is part of its power. Its supposed to make life better for everyone.

 

[Greatest I am]

Within the different Pharisee schools, the procedure was to take what had been previously written and taught within that school and then expand upon that, while also giving credit to those who preceded. Tumah I believe just referred to that a few days ago. Outside of those schools, it's a different story.

So, it's not a matter of what one may "think" as much as there was a given procedure to be followed within these schools. Again, @Tumah is much more knowledgeable about this than I am, so hopefully he'll chime in

You refer to Midrash, I think.

The left wing of Jewry still do a lot of that but I do not think the right wing does.

Regards
DL

 

[metis]

You refer to Midrash, I think.

The left wing of Jewry still do a lot of that but I do not think the right wing does.

Regards
DL

Actually it's more the other way around.

 

[Greatest I am]

What they discovered, rather than 'An entity' was that there was something that was difficult to describe,

Indeed. Perhaps impossible to describe without God popping up to describe himself or herself as the old Jewish God was thought to be androgynous.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

but I think that the ancient Jews (as well as the later Christians) believe everything about the Divine that can be known,

Indeed. I see the ancients as perpetual seekers after God but unfortunately, most today have turned to idol worship instead of being God seekers.

Why does God interact with people when we seek harmony?

A supernatural God does not. Our own internal God does. When we seek harmony, we look inside of ourselves for the formula that gives it.

The history of the discovery of God is not a silly progression from polytheism towards monotheism but is a logical study of nature leading to an appreciation of harmony and the incidental discovery of God. No doubt the discoverers are somewhat surprised.

Indeed. All of us who have reached apotheosis, excluding the divine in the definition, will have been quite disturbed by what we find within us.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

What I think is that the Bible isn't nefarious or written to make everybody subservient.

I would agree and say that of the original Jewish scriptures and ideas. I would not agree on the way that Christianity twisted things around.

For example, the Jews saw Eden as the place of man's elevation while the Christians turned that elevation into a fall.

Jews have no problem with. "they have become like Gods in the knowing of good and evil", ---- while Christians think that our fall.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Actually it's more the other way around.

The way I use language, left wing is progressive and liberal and the right wing is more fundamental and resist change.

I note that these days, many seem to have reversed the right and left.

Regards
DL

 

[Tumah]

So this last is how you give an argument. Ok.

Strange that you would think that a God who has all that he would ever desire instantly, with a desire to be served instead of serving. You put your own desires into the God you idol worship.

What you see as Jesus' lack of education, I see as a progressive thinker trying to teach idol worshipers to advance their laws intelligently instead of just following ancient so called wisdom.

Regards
DL

What you are saying lacks any basis. We don't need to play guessing games. We have plenty of available material describing how the Rabbis derived Laws and interpreted the Tanach. There is no evidence that the Rabbis ever considered overriding Biblical Law on their own volition. Even a prophet is not allowed to override a Biblical prohibition permanently or create a new Biblical Law. Let alone the Rabbis. Your claims are empty and self-serving. And you have yet to bring any real evidence except "this is what Jesus did". Which has got to be the worst possible evidence ever.