are all vaishnavites conservative

[Vrindavana Das]

I was Christian also, but from my experience and learning, most Hindus are accepting of non-Hindu gods for non-Hindus. I think it's fine and proper for a Christian to worship Jesus, a Muslim to worship Allah, a Jew to worship Yahweh, and so on. I usually quote a verse from the Rig Veda that says "The truth is one, but the wise know it by many names". That is to say, there are many paths to the one God, but you follow the one that's right for you.

Friend,

Hinduism, Christian-ism, Islamism, Buddhism...all these are faiths. I can follow Hinduism today, change to Jainism tomorrow then to Islamism and so on. Faiths can change. These are not religion.

Religion is universal. It is applicable to all. It is 'nature of soul', inseparable from you, me...anyone. Something like liquidity is nature of water. It is known as Sanatana Dharma

I can't say with any certainty that Vishnu is the only god who has incarnated, but I understand that Hanuman is an avatar of Shiva, for example.

Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. He incarnates in different forms like Rama, Narsimha, Varaha etc. to perform His pastimes, for the pleasure of His unalloyed devotees. All other Demi-gods who incarnate with Him, do so only to support and assist Him in His pastimes.

 

[Vinayaka]

so could a vaishnavite worship jesus

They could ... its a very big faith. Some do. The understanding of sectarian views is difficult. For example, a Smarta (a group that believes all Gods are essentially the same, just different expressions) who chooses Vishnu as his ishta (term for the one expression the individual is more suited to) isn't all that different than a pure Vaishnavite in appearance and action. Only when you delve deeper into the person's understanding will you discover the differences.

As for Jesus, in the west is far more common for Hindus to say its okay to have Jesus on your altar. Anywhere in India where the Christians came, in history, it is far more common as well. Kerala is the best example because there were some very early Christian communities there.

But in places where Christians never went, Christianity and Christ remain largely totally irrelevant, which is my personal stance.

But there are some very vast and irreconcilable differences between the two religions. For starters, what happens when you die?

 

[Jainarayan]

This 'Hanuman is an avatar of Siva' thing is either a Vaisnava or a a Smarta concept, I'm not sure. Generally Saivites don't believe in avatara as a concept.

Yeah, I wasn't sure about it. Vaishnavas love avatars. I really don't remember where I read it. It may have been in a synopsis of the Ramayana. Rama prayed to Shiva before setting out to rescue Sita; I think the story goes that Shiva took Hanuman's form to aid Rama.

Of course within 'liberal' Hinduism (if there is such a thing), you can be a Vaishnava one day, and a Saiva the next. When I (as a Saiva) go to a Vaishnava temple, I just shut up is all. A lot of regular Hindus don't know the difference nor care.

Exactly. The temple near me :: Sri Guruvayurappan Temple :: performs services to several deities, and pretty much to Vishnu and Shiva equally.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Yeah, I wasn't sure about it. Vaishnavas love avatars. I really don't remember where I read it. It may have been in a synopsis of the Ramayana. Rama prayed to Shiva before setting out to rescue Sita; I think the story goes that Shiva took Hanuman's form to aid Rama.

God is ONE. He takes various avtars/incarnations to establish the principles of religion, whenever such a need is felt in the society.

He personally declares:

paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge​

To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium. Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 4 Verse 8

Also, Hanumana is an incarnation of Shiva. Vashnavites believe it. Also, Shaktas believe it. Hanuman, Incarnation of Shiva

Exactly. The temple near me :: Sri Guruvayurappan Temple :: performs services to several deities, and pretty much to Vishnu and Shiva equally.

The worship of Demigods like Shiva is not on the same platform of worshiping Vishnu.

God declares:

kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ
prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ
taḿ taḿ niyamam āsthāya
prakṛtyā niyatāḥ svayā​

Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures. Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 7 Verse 20

PURPORT
Those who are freed from all material contaminations surrender unto the Supreme Lord and engage in His devotional service. As long as the material contamination is not completely washed off, they are by nature nondevotees. But even those who have material desires and who resort to the Supreme Lord are not so much attracted by external nature; because of approaching the right goal, they soon become free from all material lust. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is recommended that whether one is a pure devotee and is free from all material desires, or is full of material desires, or desires liberation from material contamination, he should in all cases surrender to Vāsudeva and worship Him.

As stated in the Bhāgavatam (2.3.10):

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā
mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ
tīvreṇa bhakti-yogena
yajeta puruṣaḿ param​

Less intelligent people who have lost their spiritual sense take shelter of demigods for immediate fulfillment of material desires. Generally, such people do not go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because they are in the lower modes of nature (ignorance and passion) and therefore worship various demigods. Following the rules and regulations of worship, they are satisfied. The worshipers of demigods are motivated by small desires and do not know how to reach the supreme goal, but a devotee of the Supreme Lord is not misguided. Because in Vedic literature there are recommendations for worshiping different gods for different purposes (e.g., a diseased man is recommended to worship the sun), those who are not devotees of the Lord think that for certain purposes demigods are better than the Supreme Lord. But a pure devotee knows that the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa is the master of all. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Ādi 5.142) it is said, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya: only the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is master, and all others are servants. Therefore a pure devotee never goes to demigods for satisfaction of his material needs. He depends on the Supreme Lord. And the pure devotee is satisfied with whatever He gives.

 

[Jainarayan]

so could a vaishnavite worship jesus

No. A Vaishnava to be a Vaishnava needs to worship Vishnu or an Avatar of Vishnu.
A Hindu however could worship Jesus as his Ishtadevata.

Vaishnava is a vṛddhi word of the name Vishnu. A vṛddhi word is a lengthening of a Sanskrit name or word as a description.

So properly, a Vaishnava worships Vishnu (or Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu, or the source of Vishnu).

If one believes Jesus is an avatara of Vishnu, then one might worship Jesus. But on the whole, Vaishnava refers to worship of Vishnu/Krishna and/or one of His many incarnations.

Some people are devotees of only Narasimha, but as an avatara of Vishnu, they are still Vaishnavas. Jesus is not (generally) accepted as an avatara of Vishnu.

But because Hinduism is so vast, and the main tenet is is seek moksha, I guess anything is possible.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

so could a vaishnavite worship jesus

No. Vaishavites do not worship anybody except Vishnu or Krishna...Supreme personality of Godhead.
The word Vaishnava comes from Vishnu. Worshippers of Vishnu, or Krishna are called Vaishnavas.

 

[Jainarayan]

Friend,

Hinduism, Christian-ism, Islamism, Buddhism...all these are faiths. I can follow Hinduism today, change to Jainism tomorrow then to Islamism and so on. Faiths can change. These are not religion.

Religion is universal. It is applicable to all. It is 'nature of soul', inseparable from you, me...anyone. Something like liquidity is nature of water. It is known as Sanatana Dharma

This is why I quote the Rig Veda: ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti.

Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. He incarnates in different forms like Rama, Narsimha, Varaha etc. to perform His pastimes, for the pleasure of His unalloyed devotees. All other Demi-gods who incarnate with Him, do so only to support and assist Him in His pastimes.

Agreed. It can even be said that all other incarnations and demi-gods are His expansions. He says in Gita that He is the only enjoyer of sacrifice. All prayers and requests ultimately go to Him through the demi-gods, and are granted by Him alone.

 

[Madhuri]

No. Vaishavites do not worship anybody except Vishnu or Krishna...Supreme personality of Godhead.
The word Vaishnava comes from Vishnu. Worshippers of Vishnu, or Krishna are called Vaishnavas.

Well that is the prime deity, but we do worship all varieties of manifestations/expansions and also gurus etc.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

This is why I quote the Rig Veda: ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti.



Agreed. It can even be said that all other incarnations and demi-gods are His expansions. He says in Gita that He is the only enjoyer of sacrifice. All prayers and requests ultimately go to Him through the demi-gods, and are granted by Him alone.

You are right. Krishna is the only enjoyer of all sacrifices. Demigods can fulfill our different desires because they have been given that power by Krishna. Therefore, instead of asking Demigods, we should approach Krishna. That is what Krishna wants and tells in Bhagvad Gita:

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam​

Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 9 Verse 23

Worshiping Krishna and worshiping demigods is not on the same level. If it were same, why would Krishna say in Bhagvad Gita:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
​

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 9 Verse 25

Also, there are 10 offenses towards the Holy name, which we should avoid to progress on the spiritual path. The 'second offense' in that list is to consider Demigods equal to Krishna.

sivasya sri visnor ya iha guna namadi sakalam dhiyd bhinnam pasyet sa khalu hari-nama hitakarah-To think that the names or qualities of the demigods are equal to Krsna. http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/profiles/blogs/the-ten-offenses-to-the-holy

 

[Marble]

The worship of Demigods like Shiva is not on the same platform of worshiping Vishnu.

Shiva is not a demigod.
Perhaps Vaisnavas feel this way (I know ISKCON does), but not Hindus in general.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Well that is the prime deity, but we do worship all varieties of manifestations/expansions and also gurus etc.

We respect all manifestations/expansions and worship them on specific occasions like Lord Rama is worshipped on Ram-navami day. However, we worship and accept as our life and soul, only the prime deity - Krishna.

As for Guru, he is Krishna's representative. Therefore the guru should be offered the same respect one would offer to God.

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says in his prayers to the spiritual master;

yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah:​

By the mercy of the spiritual master, one receives the benediction of Krishna.
This, if we surrender to the bona fide Guru, we surrender to God. God accepts our surrender to the Guru.

 

[ratikala]

Shiva is not a demigod.
Perhaps Vaisnavas feel this way (I know ISKCON does), but not Hindus in general.

dear marble ,

do not worry a vaisnava does not concider siva to be a demi god ,

siva or maheshwara is concidered part of the trimurti "bhrama visnu maheshwara "
who on a cosmic level fulfill the functions of ....the creator the maintainer and the destroyer .
each are an expansion of maha visnu which shavites simply know by another name :namaste

there is no point in creating schisms where schIsms dont exist ,

and a vaisnava knows siva as shambhu , the greatest devotee

 

[Marble]

dear marble ,

do not worry a vaisnava does not concider siva to be a demi god ,

siva or maheshwara is concidered part of the trimurti "bhrama visnu maheshwara "
who on a cosmic level fulfill the functions of ....the creator the maintainer and the destroyer .
each are an expansion of maha visnu which shavites simply know by another name :namaste

there is no point in creating schisms where schIsms dont exist ,

and a vaisnava knows siva as shambhu , the greatest devotee

Yes, for Shaivas, Shiva in his form as Nataraja carries out the five activities of creation, destruction, preservation, salvation, and illusion.
And every Shaiva knows that Vishnu is Shivas best friend & his best man at the wedding with Parvati (Brahma is the priest).

 

[Vinayaka]

And every Shaiva knows that Vishnu is Shivas best friend & his best man at the wedding with Parvati (Brahman is the priest).

I guess this means I'm not a Saiva after all as I didn't know that.

My view is that there are many different views, mine just being one of many.

Personally, I chuck any idea of any wedding into the pile known as myth. God, whatever you call it, is genderless. Weddings represent unmanifest/manifest or cause/effect principles, not any sense of wedding in the human sense.

But hey, that's just me. (ell, not just me, probably a few others too.)

 

[Jainarayan]

Yes, for Shaivas, Shiva in his form as Nataraja carries out the five activities of creation, destruction, preservation, salvation, and illusion.
And every Shaiva knows that Vishnu is Shivas best friend & his best man at the wedding with Parvati (Brahma is the priest).

Love the picture! A keeper for sure.

If we want to really dissect it, one can consider Shiva and Vishnu to be brothers-in-law.

Narayani, who is Yogamaya and revealed Herself to Kamsa as Her Durga form was born as the baby sister of Krishna. Kamsa sought to kill both Krishna and Yogamaya.

If Narayani=Yogamaya=Durga=Parvati=Vishnu's/Krishna's sister, and Parvati is the wife of Shiva, then Shiva and Vishnu are brothers-in-law. I read that somewhere.

 

[ratikala]

I guess this means I'm not a Saiva after all as I didn't know that.

My view is that there are many different views, mine just being one of many.

Personally, I chuck any idea of any wedding into the pile known as myth. God, whatever you call it, is genderless. Weddings represent unmanifest/manifest or cause/effect principles, not any sense of wedding in the human sense.

But hey, that's just me. (ell, not just me, probably a few others too.)

dear prabhu ji ,

do you not share the understanding that siva and parvati , radha and krsna , both in the same way are shakti and shaktimaan femail and male counterparts ?

thus inseperable energy ?

 

[Jainarayan]

I guess this means I'm not a Saiva after all as I didn't know that.

Hey don't feel bad... I was called a "wolf in sheep's clothing, pretending to be a Hindu" at another site.

Personally, I chuck any idea of any wedding into the pile known as myth. God, whatever you call it, is genderless. Weddings represent unmanifest/manifest or cause/effect principles, not any sense of wedding in the human sense.

I concur for this reason... Krishna said in B.G. 12.5 "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

I have always taken this to mean that we the embodied need to fix our minds on something that represents the unmanifest God. Hence the use of images and murtis to help us advance. This is just my view.

 

[Jainarayan]

dear prabhu ji ,

do you not share the understanding that siva and parvati , radha and krsna , both in the same way are shakti and shaktimaan femail and male counterparts ?

thus inseperable energy ?

I think the differences in sects and how we see God are a matter of "You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe". It's the same vegetable (well, it's really a fruit ) just called differently.

 

[Vinayaka]

dear prabhu ji ,

do you not share the understanding that siva and parvati , radha and krsna , both in the same way are shakti and shaktimaan femail and male counterparts ?

thus inseperable energy ?

I have no idea what shakti and shaktimaan are ... just an old fool here ... sorry ... for me, all I need is Siva ... well, not quite ... Nataraja does wear an earring, and I worship several forms of Siva, and Ganesha and Murugan

 

[Vinayaka]

Hey don't feel bad... I was called a "wolf in sheep's clothing, pretending to be a Hindu" at another site.

Personally, I really don't care what other people think. I have a hard enough time figuring out what I think, let alone subconscious minds I'm not at all familiar with ... it would be ... let's say ... interesting ... to have that siddhi

But it is a big big Hindu world ... many different takes