Are atheists irrational?

[BilliardsBall]

I would be if I though you had it - actually had it - to offer. I've seen no reason to think that you do.


Not really fact-checking (since I don't think the facts are on your side); more like checking for internal consistency in your arguments to see if I can salvage respect for your brand of Christianity.

Respect for Christianity, my brand or another's, would require at least a small amount of respect for our holy texts. You won't even research to see if prophecies are true. You won't pray to Jesus Christ. Is it some kind of new age "respect" that you seek? A wishy-washy feeling of "I tolerate fundies" or a real respect for an ancient tradition with over a billion modern adherents?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Respect for Christianity, my brand or another's, would require at least a small amount of respect for our holy texts.

I draw a distinction between the Bible and your pareidolia about the Bible.

That being said, there's a fair bit in the Bible that ought to be disrespected.

You won't even research to see if prophecies are true.

I invested way more in your claims than they warranted. I gave up on it when you stopped answering my questions.

You won't pray to Jesus Christ.

Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.

Is it some kind of new age "respect" that you seek? A wishy-washy feeling of "I tolerate fundies" or a real respect for an ancient tradition with over a billion modern adherents?

I've met Christians whose beliefs are a lot more coherent and intelligent than how you've described yours, so don't think that my criticisms of you reflect on all of Christianity.

And by "respect", I'm getting at whether or not I should dismiss you as a crank; whether I should uphold freedom of speech and religion because it allows you to express your views or despite that it allows you to express your views.

That's the sort of respect I'm talking about: you probably don't have the evidence to convince me that your interpretation of Christianity is based in fact, but you do have it in your power to get me to say "even though we disagree on some fundamental issues, I see where he's coming from and I appreciate what he's doing."

... but so far, you're failing to achieve this standard.

 

[Deidre]

I think it's safe to say, if you're a theist, and you believe your position is rational, then all opposing views you might deem to be irrational. Same for atheists. I think it varies from person to person, like most things. I have mainly atheist friends and they are opened minded to many political and religious views, they just may not adopt them for themselves, but they still respect the person who might hold them, so long as that person is hurting anyone with those views.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I draw a distinction between the Bible and your pareidolia about the Bible.

That being said, there's a fair bit in the Bible that ought to be disrespected.


I invested way more in your claims than they warranted. I gave up on it when you stopped answering my questions.


Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.


I've met Christians whose beliefs are a lot more coherent and intelligent than how you've described yours, so don't think that my criticisms of you reflect on all of Christianity.

And by "respect", I'm getting at whether or not I should dismiss you as a crank; whether I should uphold freedom of speech and religion because it allows you to express your views or despite that it allows you to express your views.

That's the sort of respect I'm talking about: you probably don't have the evidence to convince me that your interpretation of Christianity is based in fact, but you do have it in your power to get me to say "even though we disagree on some fundamental issues, I see where he's coming from and I appreciate what he's doing."

... but so far, you're failing to achieve this standard.

I DO lack the power to make you have faith in Christ--that will require a timing of and drawing of Jesus on your heart and mind--and an exercise of your will. Yes, I have good evidence that many people find convincing, but there is no Bible statement that evidence up to and including a personal discussion with Jesus or seeing Him resurrected from the dead will disallow a willful or self-willed person to despise and reject Christ!

I would like to comment on your statement that "Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse."

That is a typical atheist response to "why don't you pray" AFTER the atheist has been told repeatedly that they are required to seek God to find God, since God per the scriptures states He must be sought to be found.

"I don't want to talk to myself or the air"--as if that is a legitimate excuse--is intricately linked to human pride. You can anytime say to God, "God, if you exist, please reveal yourself to me and I will trust you for salvation and pursue a relationship with you" without ever telling me or people on the forum publicly you have done so.

The analogy to "I would like to comment on your statement that "Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse" could include "Marrieds tell me there are beautiful singles desiring relationships but I won't try to communicate with any single before I know beforehand they will respond" and etc.

Put another way, daring God if He exists to strike you dead with lightning comes off as a more legit response!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I would be if I though you had it - actually had it - to offer. I've seen no reason to think that you do.


Not really fact-checking (since I don't think the facts are on your side); more like checking for internal consistency in your arguments to see if I can salvage respect for your brand of Christianity.

Since many of my arguments are found in the scriptures, not reading the scriptures at all is making your job difficult.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since many of my arguments are found in the scriptures, not reading the scriptures at all is making your job difficult.

I've read the scriptures we talked about; I don't think they support your position by any reasonable interpretation I've been able to see. Whatever interpretation you're using I can only get from you; once you provide it, I can evaluate it against the scriptures for myself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I DO lack the power to make you have faith in Christ--that will require a timing of and drawing of Jesus on your heart and mind--and an exercise of your will. Yes, I have good evidence that many people find convincing, but there is no Bible statement that evidence up to and including a personal discussion with Jesus or seeing Him resurrected from the dead will disallow a willful or self-willed person to despise and reject Christ!

The failure of your crappy arguments to convince me is somehow my fault?

Tell me this: if you read arguments for points from Hindu belief that had the same quality as your arguments for your brand of Christianity, would you be any closer to accepting the truth of Hinduism than you are right now?

I would like to comment on your statement that "Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse."

That is a typical atheist response to "why don't you pray" AFTER the atheist has been told repeatedly that they are required to seek God to find God, since God per the scriptures states He must be sought to be found.

"I don't want to talk to myself or the air"--as if that is a legitimate excuse--is intricately linked to human pride. You can anytime say to God, "God, if you exist, please reveal yourself to me and I will trust you for salvation and pursue a relationship with you" without ever telling me or people on the forum publicly you have done so.

The analogy to "I would like to comment on your statement that "Praying to Jesus before establishing that there's even a Jesus to pray to strikes me as putting the cart before the horse" could include "Marrieds tell me there are beautiful singles desiring relationships but I won't try to communicate with any single before I know beforehand they will respond" and etc.

Put another way, daring God if He exists to strike you dead with lightning comes off as a more legit response!

Suggesting prayer as a means to evidence is dishonest. Any actual evidence for God's existence that could be obtained from prayer could be obtained via other means if it was real. The approach you're suggesting - that I should act as if I believe in order to encourage belief - is a tactic of charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and fraudsters.

If the case for your beliefs requires me to pray to be convinced, than you have no case.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Other way around.

Not possible. You can't reject something that hasn't been presented.

 

[jonathan180iq]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

Atheist is little more than a label - like tall, short, athletic, dark, hairy, or smelly... Tall people can be idiots, they just can't be short. Short people can be really funny, but they can't be tall. Athletic people can be political, they just can't be out of shape. Dark people can be mechanics, but they can't be light skinned. Hairy people can be race car drivers, but they can't be hairless. And smelly people can be pianists but they can't be pleasingly aromatic.

You see how this works.

Your mistake is assuming that atheism has a single driving belief behind it. That's a mistake that many current and former theists make.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Not possible. You can't reject something that hasn't been presented.

I suggest you actually read the thread. Atheism is not always a rejection, some times it is an absence of belief. If you don't believe in gods, and you never believed in gods that is also atheism.

If you never heard of gods to form a belief and/or reject them guess what? That is also an atheist.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I suggest you actually read the thread. Atheism is not always a rejection, some times it is an absence of belief. If you don't believe in gods, and you never believed in gods that is also atheism.

If you never heard of gods to form a belief and/or reject them guess what? That is also an atheist.

I suggest you don't assume too much.

Don't get hung up on the word "reject".

The title of atheist cannot exist without there first being theistic claims, and thus theists. One cannot be "without" theism until theism is established. So whoever said it was right - atheism is a response to theism.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I suggest you don't assume too much.

Don't get hung up on the word "reject".

The title of atheist cannot exist without there first being theistic claims, and thus theists. One cannot be "without" theism until theism is established. So whoever said it was right - atheism is a response to theism.

"Don't get hung up on the word "reject"."

You mean how you are "hung up" on the word atheism?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

Sounds like you're struggling with your own beliefs.....BTW never let others dictate why you leave a religion, you do so because that said religion does not fulfill your needs as a human being.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Atheist is little more than a label - like tall, short, athletic, dark, hairy, or smelly... Tall people can be idiots, they just can't be short. Short people can be really funny, but they can't be tall. Athletic people can be political, they just can't be out of shape. Dark people can be mechanics, but they can't be light skinned. Hairy people can be race car drivers, but they can't be hairless. And smelly people can be pianists but they can't be pleasingly aromatic.

You see how this works.

Your mistake is assuming that atheism has a single driving belief behind it. That's a mistake that many current and former theists make.

Quite the opposite. I do not hold an notion that Atheism has a singular purpose, I am confused with why I cannot find an atheist who does not think this. I have never met but one atheist who is able to accept my opinions on morality and politics alone although we disagree with many aspects of a philosophical nature.

I have been denied as an atheist for voting Republican and accused of being a closet Muslim, en masse I should add. Be it online or in person this happens every time. I am told I hold lingering theistic beliefs which ironically I was far more progressive as a Muslim in my youth than I am now. I was a full blown conservative by the time I became an atheist as a result of my atheism and not the reverse.

My opinions on the scope of morality also acquires idiotic responses because I do not accept homosexuality as a basis for the right of marriage. My opinions are primarily rooted in biology and the classical conception of marriage which I hold as the only legitimate view. Which ironically is something I did not develop as a Muslim.

Keep in mind I was a teenager when I was religious so I wasn't developing lengthy observations about life during this age.

But it is this very behavior that bugs me. Atheists are rational until it comes to something not related to religion and at that point they begin acting like evangelicals and going with their emotions on every topic. Atheism is subverting itself into progressive ideology and social well being instead of merely being a convenient label and nothing more. I am seeing so many atheists treat it like a religion it is beginning to sicken me to the point I get strong theistic inclinations just out of spite and frustration.

. . . so in short, atheists are making me religious which in logical terms should not be happening.

Also my posts are riddled with emotions and frustration so if I sound like an angry teenage girl going through puberty I apologize. It is just what I am going through is really confusing me since I am seeing people of my own kind on a consistent basis act like imbeciles.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Quite the opposite. I do not hold an notion that Atheism has a singular purpose, I am confused with why I cannot find an atheist who does not think this. I have never met but one atheist who is able to accept my opinions on morality and politics alone although we disagree with many aspects of a philosophical nature.

I have been denied as an atheist for voting Republican and accused of being a closet Muslim, en masse I should add. Be it online or in person this happens every time. I am told I hold lingering theistic beliefs which ironically I was far more progressive as a Muslim in my youth than I am now. I was a full blown conservative by the time I became an atheist as a result of my atheism and not the reverse.

My opinions on the scope of morality also acquires idiotic responses because I do not accept homosexuality as a basis for the right of marriage. My opinions are primarily rooted in biology and the classical conception of marriage which I hold as the only legitimate view. Which ironically is something I did not develop as a Muslim.

Keep in mind I was a teenager when I was religious so I wasn't developing lengthy observations about life during this age.

But it is this very behavior that bugs me. Atheists are rational until it comes to something not related to religion and at that point they begin acting like evangelicals and going with their emotions on every topic. Atheism is subverting itself into progressive ideology and social well being instead of merely being a convenient label and nothing more. I am seeing so many atheists treat it like a religion it is beginning to sicken me to the point I get strong theistic inclinations just out of spite and frustration.

. . . so in short, atheists are making me religious which in logical terms should not be happening.

Also my posts are riddled with emotions and frustration so if I sound like an angry teenage girl going through puberty I apologize. It is just what I am going through is really confusing me since I am seeing people of my own kind on a consistent basis act like imbeciles.

Should start a thread about atheists who are conservative, such as opposing gay marriage. That intrigues me.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Quite the opposite. I do not hold an notion that Atheism has a singular purpose, I am confused with why I cannot find an atheist who does not think this. I have never met but one atheist who is able to accept my opinions on morality and politics alone although we disagree with many aspects of a philosophical nature.

Now you've met two.
I can disagree with your politics and still admit that you're an atheist because you don't believe in God... I think you just need some new friends.

I have been denied as an atheist for voting Republican and accused of being a closet Muslim, en masse I should add. Be it online or in person this happens every time. I am told I hold lingering theistic beliefs which ironically I was far more progressive as a Muslim in my youth than I am now. I was a full blown conservative by the time I became an atheist as a result of my atheism and not the reverse.

I actually know quite a few atheists who have followed their path toward conservatism after their deconversion from an organized religion. It's not unheard of - it just seems that you aren't surrounded by it.

My opinions on the scope of morality also acquires idiotic responses because I do not accept homosexuality as a basis for the right of marriage. My opinions are primarily rooted in biology and the classical conception of marriage which I hold as the only legitimate view. Which ironically is something I did not develop as a Muslim.

Right... Again, see my previous two responses.
I can disagree with you politically and still agree with you about the vacancy of theism.
I think way too many people forget this.

Keep in mind I was a teenager when I was religious so I wasn't developing lengthy observations about life during this age.

That's how most of us got sucked into it...

But it is this very behavior that bugs me. Atheists are rational until it comes to something not related to religion and at that point they begin acting like evangelicals and going with their emotions on every topic. Atheism is subverting itself into progressive ideology and social well being instead of merely being a convenient label and nothing more. I am seeing so many atheists treat it like a religion it is beginning to sicken me to the point I get strong theistic inclinations just out of spite and frustration.

. . . so in short, atheists are making me religious which in logical terms should not be happening.

Like I said, atheists can be literally anywhere on the scale of human experience - just like every other human. The only thing they can't be is theist. You should expect that some of them will be bad at what they do and how they think.

Also my posts are riddled with emotions and frustration so if I sound like an angry teenage girl going through puberty I apologize. It is just what I am going through is really confusing me since I am seeing people of my own kind on a consistent basis act like imbeciles.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Should start a thread about atheists who are conservative, such as opposing gay marriage. That intrigues me.

Sorry I'll be on the go again soon. But my opinions on homosexuality is that it is normal and nothing new.

I only disagree on the basis of marriage due to its classical condition involving child rearing and procreation. I don't regard homosexual parings as marriages not because I think it's bad but because I view it as silly.

I literally throw it in the same category as sissies and make-believe. It's a pretend marriage with no understanding of procreation.

I don't believe it needs to be regulated or stopped in any shape or form. When you read my opinions you realize that it's not a big deal to me and I only speak from a traditionalist point of view. Semantic arguments aren't great ones which is why I never opposed same sex marriage.


I also feel asleep writing this. Just woke up

 

[Laika]

Should start a thread about atheists who are conservative, such as opposing gay marriage. That intrigues me.

There are a couple of old threads out there if you are interested:
Conservative Atheists?
Conservative Atheists

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Brad Stine thinks that they are:

 

[BilliardsBall]

The failure of your crappy arguments to convince me is somehow my fault?

Tell me this: if you read arguments for points from Hindu belief that had the same quality as your arguments for your brand of Christianity, would you be any closer to accepting the truth of Hinduism than you are right now?


Suggesting prayer as a means to evidence is dishonest. Any actual evidence for God's existence that could be obtained from prayer could be obtained via other means if it was real. The approach you're suggesting - that I should act as if I believe in order to encourage belief - is a tactic of charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and fraudsters.

If the case for your beliefs requires me to pray to be convinced, than you have no case.

It is dishonest to ask you to reach out to communicate to a third party, a party who has informed me that He is awaiting your next move?

It is dishonest for a person to seek their creator? Will man ever grow intelligent enough to create sentient life? And if he does and implants sentient life on another planet, is it dishonest for that life to seek their creator in the future, should man plant that life than leave that planet?