Are atheists irrational?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is dishonest to ask you to reach out to communicate to a third party, a party who has informed me that He is awaiting your next move?

It is dishonest for a person to seek their creator? Will man ever grow intelligent enough to create sentient life? And if he does and implants sentient life on another planet, is it dishonest for that life to seek their creator in the future, should man plant that life than leave that planet?

Yes, and it's also dishonest to spin prayer the way you are.

For illustration purposes, go through the steps with me:

1. A person prays.
2. Because they prayed, ______ will happen.
3. Because _____ will happen, the person will know God exists.

What do you think fills that blank? What's the effect of prayer that:

- rationally establishes that God exists, and
- can't be tested without praying onesself?

 

[Milton Platt]

I think that atheists are sort of in the middle ground when it comes to rationalism.

I would say that atheists are individuals who hold a variety of rational and irrational beliefs just like everyone else. As to the god claims of theists, it isn't irrational to withhold belief until sufficient evidence is presented.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, and it's also dishonest to spin prayer the way you are.

For illustration purposes, go through the steps with me:

1. A person prays.
2. Because they prayed, ______ will happen.
3. Because _____ will happen, the person will know God exists.

What do you think fills that blank? What's the effect of prayer that:

- rationally establishes that God exists, and
- can't be tested without praying onesself?

Let's fill in those blanks, then:

1. A person prays for IRREFUTABLE PROOF OF JESUS'S EXISTENCE.
2. Because they prayed, JESUS'S REVELATIONS will happen TO THAT INDIVIDUAL.
3. Because THE PERSON HAS RECEIVED IRREFUTABLE PROOF, the person will know Jesus exists.

The implication, of course, being that atheists don't pray because they don't want to trust Jesus for salvation of follow God's will in their life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let's fill in those blanks, then:

1. A person prays for IRREFUTABLE PROOF OF JESUS'S EXISTENCE.
2. Because they prayed, JESUS'S REVELATIONS will happen TO THAT INDIVIDUAL.
3. Because THE PERSON HAS RECEIVED IRREFUTABLE PROOF, the person will know Jesus exists.

The implication, of course, being that atheists don't pray because they don't want to trust Jesus for salvation of follow God's will in their life.

What "IRREFUTABLE PROOF"?

Edit: the fact that many people over the years have started out as sincere, believing, praying Christians and then left the faith suggests that this "proof" is not as irrefutable as you think it is. The fact that people refute it suggests it's refutable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let's fill in those blanks, then:

1. A person prays for IRREFUTABLE PROOF OF JESUS'S EXISTENCE.
2. Because they prayed, JESUS'S REVELATIONS will happen TO THAT INDIVIDUAL.
3. Because THE PERSON HAS RECEIVED IRREFUTABLE PROOF, the person will know Jesus exists.

The implication, of course, being that atheists don't pray because they don't want to trust Jesus for salvation of follow God's will in their life.

Just thinking about this again:

Are you saying that you have received irrefutable proof of Jesus's existence from Jesus himself?

If so, why haven't you shared this irrefutable proof?

 

[BilliardsBall]

What "IRREFUTABLE PROOF"?

Edit: the fact that many people over the years have started out as sincere, believing, praying Christians and then left the faith suggests that this "proof" is not as irrefutable as you think it is. The fact that people refute it suggests it's refutable.

People do horrible, terrible things, including rejecting Jesus despite proof. Christians who know the Lord and walk obliquely are known in the Bible as "backsliders". King David backslid for a time, memorably.

There is more than one irrefutable proof. Avail yourself of some. Ask . . . receive. Knock . . . it opens.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Just thinking about this again:

Are you saying that you have received irrefutable proof of Jesus's existence from Jesus himself?

If so, why haven't you shared this irrefutable proof?

I have shared the proofs I received with a number of Christians and also non-Christians. But it's called a personal testimony because God is an emotionally responsive being who tailors salvation to fit the individual. I'm excited about what I learned and experienced en route to choosing to trust Christ, and others are excited about God communicated with them.

Let's delve a little deeper? Would you take God communicating with you as irrefutable proof? Why or why not?

For example, God gives me knowledge at times directly that others confirm as true.

 

[blü 2]

People do horrible, terrible things, including rejecting Jesus despite proof.

Why do you reject Dionysos without proof? And you couldn't have more proof of Aphrodite if you tried. Yahweh's the empty niche.

Christians who know the Lord and walk obliquely are known in the Bible as "backsliders". King David backslid for a time, memorably.

Mebbe, but he wasn't a Christian. Try Peter ─ a real flake, that one.

There is more than one irrefutable proof. Avail yourself of some. Ask . . . receive. Knock . . . it opens.

One day I'll start a thread and describe my adventure with that very idea.

(By the way, there's nothing 'irrefutable' about personal experience. It's why the cop with the video always beats the driver who swears on oath that ...)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let's delve a little deeper? Would you take God communicating with you as irrefutable proof? Why or why not?

Don't put the cart before the horse: how would a person know that something was "God communicating with you"?

For example, God gives me knowledge at times directly that others confirm as true.

In what way does he give you this knowledge? Personalized notes on paper? An audible voice? Your intuition? How do you know that it comes from God?

 

[Shantanu]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

If one is a truth seeker, atheism is a phase that one has to necessarily go through in order to understand science and its limitations. From those limitations one questions whether there is a higher power after all in control of the universe. The search for the truth goes on relentlessly as an ongoing process. The questions that need to be asked are raised. Above all why should God make Himself known to you? What do you want from God? What is God like and so on. There are ways in which these questions are tackled and if God wants the answers are revealed.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why do you reject Dionysos without proof? And you couldn't have more proof of Aphrodite if you tried. Yahweh's the empty niche.
Mebbe, but he wasn't a Christian. Try Peter ─ a real flake, that one.

One day I'll start a thread and describe my adventure with that very idea.

(By the way, there's nothing 'irrefutable' about personal experience. It's why the cop with the video always beats the driver who swears on oath that ...)

I didn't say my irrefutable proof was anecdotal personal experience.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Don't put the cart before the horse: how would a person know that something was "God communicating with you"?


In what way does he give you this knowledge? Personalized notes on paper? An audible voice? Your intuition? How do you know that it comes from God?

I know when God communicates with me. How would you know? Please explain.

 

[blü 2]

I didn't say my irrefutable proof was anecdotal personal experience.

Then you'll have no hesitation in laying this irrefutable evidence before all of us, compelling our instant assent and affirmation

I'm astonished you haven't done that already. Please do so now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know when God communicates with me. How would you know? Please explain.

If you say that God has communicated with you, this implies you've figured out how to tell whether something is a communication from God. So how do you tell?

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you say that God has communicated with you, this implies you've figured out how to tell whether something is a communication from God. So how do you tell?

Very good question. Different Christians have different spiritual gifts. Mine seems to be the "word of knowledge". I receive on occasion clear direction accompanied by divine knowledge (not the only example of communications from God, but an okay one, to start).

Let me give you two little examples of this in operation:

*A friend who is not charismatically-minded became more open to gifts of the Spirit while at a small conference. Sitting for lunch opposite a stranger, a pastor from another city, he felt a strong urge he went with to blurt out, "You need to stop cheating on your spouse, Pastor!" and the pastor left the table and ran from the room (and the conference) to return home promptly! This friend is big on strong relationships and in ordinary circumstances would be hesitant to talk to a pastor he personally knew if he had confirmation about marital infidelity.

*I'll be witnessing to someone in person, where my warmth and genuineness (as they do for all of us) comes over much better in person than online. I'm being exceptionally patient, gentle and Spirit-filled with a young man who is being hostile. As I listen to the man, I silently ask God if He has anything He needs me to know or do in this situation, and an inner voice tells me, "His father has cancer."

Not wanting to blurt out as in case 1 above (from experience!) I take a different tack soon after and ask the man, "Tell me about your home life, if you don't mind. Are you in a good situation with your family?"

"Yes, sure," comes the reply.

"What about your mother?" I ask.

"She's great. A good mom, I love her," he says.

"And your father?" I ask.

The young man starts crying, sobbing. His dad has terminal cancer. I explain the power of Jesus Christ as healer and ask if I might have the privilege to pray for his father. Sometime later, we end with an embrace as he departs. A weight has fallen from his shoulders and he leaves, promising to do as I request and read the gospel of John, prayerfully.

Now, being rationally minded, as you are, I must consider several plausible alternatives:

1) Coincidence - difficult to write these things off as anecdotal coincidences, since I have had words like this or prophecy that has come to pass often enough to be statistically improbably.

2) Self-delusion - difficult to swallow, as whenever I get that prompting or nudge and sense it is God talking/moving, my knowledge is complete, accurate. I've never said to someone, "You mom is very ill!" when it was their uncle or no one who was ill--it was mom. These words are 100% on par.

3) Reality - Words of knowledge never come to me about friends and close ones, but only strangers. They can be used for reproof or to heal or edify. They seem to align with the nature of spiritual gifts--a "special" Word of Knowledge.

4) Proximity - They fit timespace and a need--they've come when I am threatened with hostilities from someone I'm trying to reach out to in love, they mostly come when I'm in the room or locality of the other person or persons.

It has happened online, though. I've told an atheist online, "God truly does wish to touch base with you. Tuesday, 8 PM, I believe," and I got a note online Wednesday:

"I got a phone call a few minutes before 8 o'clock last night that my grandma died. Say something stupid and I will @#$@% kill you!"

"I'm sorry for your loss. My thoughts are with you at this difficult time for you and your family," I replied.

"That's big of you, thanks. I appreciate it." came the reply.

You should imagine by this point that I was tempted to inquire after this atheist's grandmother's mode of life. A dollar says she was a good Christian woman who talked with her grandson about repenting of atheism...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then you'll have no hesitation in laying this irrefutable evidence before all of us, compelling our instant assent and affirmation

I'm astonished you haven't done that already. Please do so now.

I'd be happy to do so! Simply point to the Bible passage I would adhere to that says, "When proof comes, people respond, always and all of them," so I know I'm being efficient in manner.

Rather, the Bible says persons like you should not be receiving proof from me before you have a chance to come to your senses! No offense, but Jesus's Word is my law.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Very good question. Different Christians have different spiritual gifts. Mine seems to be the "word of knowledge". I receive on occasion clear direction accompanied by divine knowledge (not the only example of communications from God, but an okay one, to start).

Let me give you two little examples of this in operation:

*A friend who is not charismatically-minded became more open to gifts of the Spirit while at a small conference. Sitting for lunch opposite a stranger, a pastor from another city, he felt a strong urge he went with to blurt out, "You need to stop cheating on your spouse, Pastor!" and the pastor left the table and ran from the room (and the conference) to return home promptly! This friend is big on strong relationships and in ordinary circumstances would be hesitant to talk to a pastor he personally knew if he had confirmation about marital infidelity.

*I'll be witnessing to someone in person, where my warmth and genuineness (as they do for all of us) comes over much better in person than online. I'm being exceptionally patient, gentle and Spirit-filled with a young man who is being hostile. As I listen to the man, I silently ask God if He has anything He needs me to know or do in this situation, and an inner voice tells me, "His father has cancer."

Not wanting to blurt out as in case 1 above (from experience!) I take a different tack soon after and ask the man, "Tell me about your home life, if you don't mind. Are you in a good situation with your family?"

"Yes, sure," comes the reply.

"What about your mother?" I ask.

"She's great. A good mom, I love her," he says.

"And your father?" I ask.

The young man starts crying, sobbing. His dad has terminal cancer. I explain the power of Jesus Christ as healer and ask if I might have the privilege to pray for his father. Sometime later, we end with an embrace as he departs. A weight has fallen from his shoulders and he leaves, promising to do as I request and read the gospel of John, prayerfully.

Now, being rationally minded, as you are, I must consider several plausible alternatives:

1) Coincidence - difficult to write these things off as anecdotal coincidences, since I have had words like this or prophecy that has come to pass often enough to be statistically improbably.

2) Self-delusion - difficult to swallow, as whenever I get that prompting or nudge and sense it is God talking/moving, my knowledge is complete, accurate. I've never said to someone, "You mom is very ill!" when it was their uncle or no one who was ill--it was mom. These words are 100% on par.

3) Reality - Words of knowledge never come to me about friends and close ones, but only strangers. They can be used for reproof or to heal or edify. They seem to align with the nature of spiritual gifts--a "special" Word of Knowledge.

4) Proximity - They fit timespace and a need--they've come when I am threatened with hostilities from someone I'm trying to reach out to in love, they mostly come when I'm in the room or locality of the other person or persons.

It has happened online, though. I've told an atheist online, "God truly does wish to touch base with you. Tuesday, 8 PM, I believe," and I got a note online Wednesday:

"I got a phone call a few minutes before 8 o'clock last night that my grandma died. Say something stupid and I will @#$@% kill you!"

"I'm sorry for your loss. My thoughts are with you at this difficult time for you and your family," I replied.

"That's big of you, thanks. I appreciate it." came the reply.

You should imagine by this point that I was tempted to inquire after this atheist's grandmother's mode of life. A dollar says she was a good Christian woman who talked with her grandson about repenting of atheism...

I wonder how you thought any of that was an answer to my question.

 

[blü 2]

I'd be happy to do so! Simply point to the Bible passage I would adhere to that says, "When proof comes, people respond, always and all of them," so I know I'm being efficient in manner.

Rather, the Bible says persons like you should not be receiving proof from me before you have a chance to come to your senses! No offense, but Jesus's Word is my law.

Hm. That don't sound too persuasive.

If Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, he'll have to try harder than that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I wonder how you thought any of that was an answer to my question.

What a rude response. I regret taking ten minutes of time to bother to tell you the exact nature of how God offers me specific, measurable, otherworldly knowledge.

It must be true that I should not waste time sharing Jesus with such a hardened skeptic.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hm. That don't sound too persuasive.

If Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, he'll have to try harder than that.

Your response underscores the nature of the problem, "He'll have to try harder than that," indicating you plan to continue to remain stubbornly opposed to any evidence or any love of Christ demonstrated to you.