Are Atheists just close minded Agnostics?

[Reverend Rick]

The best example might be if I told you I went to this church and could really feel God's presence.

If I described this feeling as intense and when I prayed to God he answered my prayers and I believe if you prayed to him too he would answer yours as well.

This is just an example, I'm not P-tizing OK?

Now, how many Agnostics would come to church and pray let alone devout Atheists?

I remember Katzpur having a thread where her example was having two groups terminally sick people where one group was prayed for while the other was not and one group got better where the other group died.

In that thread, many folks said that would not be enough evidence for them to consider the possibility that God exists.

I'm thinking what would it take? Bringing the other group back to life perhaps?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The best example might be if I told you I went to this church and could really feel God's presence.

If I described this feeling as intense and when I prayed to God he answered my prayers and I believe if you prayed to him too he would answer yours as well.

This is just an example, I'm not P-tizing OK?

Now, how many Agnostics would come to church and pray let alone devout Atheists?

Several times in church, I've felt a sense that the space was dead and spiritually empty. Does my feeling get equal weight with yours?

And I might be persuaded to pray if you would agree that a lack of response to my prayer would count as evidence against the existence of God. No excuses like "you weren't praying the right way", "you weren't praying from faith", "His time is not our time - he'll answer it in due course" or "God answered your prayer - the answer was 'no'." Would you be willing to do that?

I remember Katzpur having a thread where her example was having two groups terminally sick people where one group was prayed for while the other was not and one group got better where the other group died.

In that thread, many folks said that would not be enough evidence for them to consider the possibility that God exists.

I'm thinking what would it take? Bringing the other group back to life perhaps?

In that scenario, it would be enough for me to consider the possibility of God, but it also would be the only possibility that would be suggested. I mean, I'd say it suggests previously unknown psychic abilities as it suggests a previously unknown God.

 

[Reverend Rick]

In a large part, when I look at the reasons why theists believe what they believe, IMO, it usually comes down to reasons other than rational evaluation of the facts... IOW, it comes down to factors where rejecting the basis for their decision isn't really a matter of being closed-minded.

I am willing to take it a step further, In a large part, I don't think Theists are using any rational evaluation at all.

It would not be faith if facts where involved. You will not see me defend the rationality of faith.

Being totally honest, no one knows one way or the other which goes back to my premise that Agnostics are the only ones sticking to the facts.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Several times in church, I've felt a sense that the space was dead and spiritually empty. Does my feeling get equal weight with yours?

I believe it does.

And I might be persuaded to pray if you would agree that a lack of response to my prayer would count as evidence against the existence of God. No excuses like "you weren't praying the right way", "you weren't praying from faith", "His time is not our time - he'll answer it in due course" or "God answered your prayer - the answer was 'no'." Would you be willing to do that?

Probably not truthfully because of my admitted close mindedness.

The thing is, I doubt many true Atheists would step foot into that church much less get down on their knees and pray with all their heart either.

In that scenario, it would be enough for me to consider the possibility of God, but it also would be the only possibility that would be suggested. I mean, I'd say it suggests previously unknown psychic abilities as it suggests a previously unknown God.

Agreed

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am willing to admit my definition of close minded Atheists is harsh which is why I asked the question instead of making accusations in the thread title.

A much more fair question would be, how many close minded people have you met admitted to being close minded?

 

[9Westy9]

I am willing to admit my definition of close minded Atheists is harsh which is why I asked the question instead of making accusations in the thread title.

A much more fair question would be, how many close minded people have you met admitted to being close minded?

none. I tell some of my Christian friends that they're close minded due to the fact that they believe that the bible is innerant and therefore can't change their mind on anything. They wont admit it though

 

[Quiddity]

I believe it does.

As do I.

Plenty of stoic Christians.

 

[Quiddity]

none. I tell some of my Christian friends that they're close minded due to the fact that they believe that the bible is innerant and therefore can't change their mind on anything. They wont admit it though

I believe it's inerrant.

Does that make me close minded?

You do realize it works both ways?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A much more fair question would be, how many close minded people have you met admitted to being close minded?

That's not a fair question; how many open-minded people have you met who would admit to being closed-minded?

Since both honest open-minded people and closed-minded people in denial would reject the label "closed-minded", the mere fact that someone rejects the label doesn't tell you anything about whether they're closed-minded or not.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's not a fair question; how many open-minded people have you met who would admit to being closed-minded?

Since both honest open-minded people and closed-minded people in denial would reject the label "closed-minded", the mere fact that someone rejects the label doesn't tell you anything about whether they're closed-minded or not.

You've got me there, point well taken.

 

[9Westy9]

I believe it's inerrant.

Does that make me close minded?

You do realize it works both ways?

Depends how you interpret it. If you are open to the fact that your interpretation is wrong then you'll be fine

Yes I do. I've more or less closed my mind off to the bible and Christianity

 

[Reverend Rick]

How about I phrase it this way, are Agnostics more willing to consider the possibility that God exists?

 

[Quiddity]

Depends how you interpret it. If you are open to the fact that your interpretation is wrong then you'll be fine

Yes I do. I've more or less closed my mind off to the bible and Christianity

I love the honesty.

I'd assume you'd make such a conclusion on whether I'm close minded or not, based on how you interpret scripture?

It's just funny how you aren't open to it unless you start with the premise that they might be wrong, but you seem to be exempt from it? That's how it's sounding to me...

 

[outhouse]

The thing is, I doubt many true Atheists would step foot into that church much less get down on their knees and pray with all their heart either

36 years count??

Being totally honest, no one knows one way or the other which goes back to my premise that Agnostics are the only ones sticking to the facts.

Ah but we do know

By history and study I know the abrahamic deity was created by man and evolved into what you think you believe in.

key word is "what you believe in" because belevers all have a different view of what they believe in, it is as individual as is ones imagination.


the only thing rational about a agnostic is that they have picked vague ground from what I find, A lack of trust or knowledge in the history at hand.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Depends how you interpret it. If you are open to the fact that your interpretation is wrong then you'll be fine

:yes:
....:clap....

 

[Tristesse]

How about I phrase it this way, are Agnostics more willing to consider the possibility that God exists?

Not necessarily. As an atheist, I accept that a lot of things can be possible, but it's not about whats possible, but rather whats probable. Whether or not agnostics are more willing to accept that a god is possible is not really relevant to whether or not their open-minded. I'm open to the possibility that a god exist, that doesn't mean that I think it's probable.

 

[TruthSeeker94]

First, most agnostics are agnostic/atheists.

I think both the average atheist or agnostic is more open minded than the average Christian. I say that strongly, even as a Christian. Atheists are often ex theists, thus that already establishes them as open-minded, because they underwent a drastic belief shift. In a study it was shown that a surprising amount of atheists send their children to church. The reason being because they want to expose their children to other views. I DEFINITELY don't think Christians do that enough. Let me also ask this question, if there was no God would you want to know it? I'm sure you wouldn't. The vast majority of people would want a God to exist. Many atheists/agnostics have gone into depression because they can't believe in God. In short, atheists want to believe in God, making them more open minded to theistic arguments.

 

[Tristesse]

First, most agnostics are agnostic/atheists.

I think both the average atheist or agnostic is more open minded than the average Christian. I say that strongly, even as a Christian. Atheists are often ex theists, thus that already establishes them as open-minded, because they underwent a drastic belief shift. In a study it was shown that a surprising amount of atheists send their children to church. The reason being because they want to expose their children to other views. I DEFINITELY don't think Christians do that enough. Let me also ask this question, if there was no God would you want to know it? I'm sure you wouldn't. The vast majority of people would want a God to exist. Many atheists/agnostics have gone into depression because they can't believe in God. In short, atheists want to believe in God, making them more open minded to theistic arguments.

I don't want to believe in a god, particularly the christian god. But if it's true that a god exists, I would change my mind, but I wouldn't necessarily worship that god, thats a different discussion.

 

[JMorris]

are theists just close minded agnostics?

agnosticism only answers the question of knowledge of god's existence. that being, i dont know. and since no one knows, then the term "agnostic" is useless.

Merriam-Webster defines the word agnostic as

Definition of AGNOSTIC

1
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

if one is not committed to believing in the existence of god then they dont believe in god lol.

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness

2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

im sure i cleared up nothing. i should stick to occasionally posting stupid **** to stupid threads. less work for the same amount of reward.

 

[9Westy9]

I love the honesty.

Thanks

I'd assume you'd make such a conclusion on whether I'm close minded or not, based on how you interpret scripture?

no, only on whether you change your mind on scripture when proven wrong

It's just funny how you aren't open to it unless you start with the premise that they might be wrong, but you seem to be exempt from it? That's how it's sounding to me...

I was a Christian for 18 years and have decided to reject Scripture in general. I reject fundamentalism based on how I've seen it affect people. It gives moral people immoral views i.e. homosexuality is a sin etc. I'm not sure if you'd subscribe to that but I know many people who do. They're lovely people with not so nice views. I blame it on this book they view as innerant. Even when I refute their arguments they continue to live the way they do based on the premise that the bible is God's innerant words.