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Are Atheists just close minded Agnostics?

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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Reverend Rick said:
I guess I am the only one that can admit my closemindedness. This seems to be commonplace now a days.

My daughter denies most everything as well.

Her cell phone got broken. She would never say she broke her cell phone.

Her tires lost traction when she wrecked her car while driving too fast in the rain.

She is normal and so are you.

I could be wrong about you, it is possible you are an exception, but as a rule most Theists and Atheists are close minded no matter if they want to admit it or not.
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I'll admit that my mind is closed to ideas that don't have supporting evidence, but to me thats not close-mindedness, thats called being reasonable. If you have to accept everyone's crazy ideas to be open-minded, then I'll happily admit that my mind is closed, in that sense.

You really seam to not be understanding this. I don't believe a god exists, however, I'm open to having my mind change if there is evidence to support the claim. That is a reasonable position, not a close-minded one. What about that position is close-minded?
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
... but we get into the issue here that the term "Christian" has multiple meanings.

I don't think that individual people are entirely liberal or conservative. I think people hold various positions, and each position can lie somewhere on the liberal/conservative spectrum, but people themselves are a mix of both.
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Fair enough. In my view, theism/atheism can be the same as liberalism/conservatism. It's only because most people assume 'God' to either A) be or B) not be some kind of physically-existing Entity -- like Bigfoot -- that we can see theists and atheists as contrary creatures.

I'm claiming that 'God', like 'Christian' can have multiple meanings.

Anyway, I think that if you questioned me closely about my God-belief, you might have a hard time deciding whether I'm a theist or atheist.
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
AmbiguousGuy said:
Fair enough. In my view, theism/atheism can be the same as liberalism/conservatism. It's only because most people assume 'God' to either A) be or B) not be some kind of physically-existing Entity -- like Bigfoot -- that we can see theists and atheists as contrary creatures.

Anyway, I think that if you questioned me closely about my God-belief, you might have a hard time deciding whether I'm a theist or atheist.
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Well, if you say you believe in a god, you couldn't possibly be an atheist. So, it would be fairly easy to differentiate you from an atheist.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Tristesse said:
Well, if you say you believe in a god, you couldn't possibly be an atheist. So, it would be fairly easy to differentiate you from an atheist.
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What is 'god'? You'd have to tell me that before I could say whether I believe in God.

I'm happy sometimes thinking of 'God' as 'the passion which pushes conscious creatures into the mystery of the universe.' I believe in that God. I can't help it. I feel that passion and so believe in it.

Does that make me a theist, in your view?

Are you saying that no matter how I define God, that so long as I claim to 'believe in God,' I'm a theist? It's about the word itself? Anyone who believes in any concept labeled 'God' is a theist, in your view?
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
AmbiguousGuy said:
What is 'god'? You'd have to tell me that before I could say whether I believe in God.

I'm happy sometimes thinking of 'God' as 'the passion which pushes conscious creatures into the mystery of the universe.' I believe in that God. I can't help it. I feel that passion and so believe in it.

Does that make me a theist, in your view?

Are you saying that no matter how I define God, that so long as I claim to 'believe in God,' I'm a theist? It's about the word itself? Anyone who believes in any concept labeled 'God' is a theist, in your view?
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Considering that the definition of a theist is one who believes that a god or deity exists, then yes, if you say that you believe in a god, you're a theist or at least a deist, because you couldn't possibly be an atheist in that regard.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Tristesse said:
Considering that the definition of a theist is one who believes that a god or deity exists, then yes, if you say that you believe in a god, you're a theist or at least a deist, because you couldn't possibly be an atheist in that regard.
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OK. To me, it seems like a mechanical way of viewing language, but to each his own.

Frankly I'm not even sure what it means to 'believe' something, and I've heard people insist that they have no beliefs. I guess I see the mind and language as vaguer things than most people do. If we're going to get down close to it, I think we have to define 'theist' and 'atheist' as I've suggested earlier... as assent to a particular, specific string of words.

It's not that I 'believe' in God. It's whether I would assent to a particular statement with the word 'God' in it. And if you change a single word in that string, I might object and withhold my assent. So a single word in the statement might change me from a theist to an atheist. Heck, I might even rethink the original statement and decide that I don't 'believe' it, just because of a different reading.

Which is so loosey-goosey, labelwise, that I consider such labels pretty much useless.

Anyway, would you agree that labeling someone as an atheist is simply a personal opinion? In your eyes, I'm a theist since I can create a definition of God which seems believable to me. But am I actually a theist? Or only a theist in your personal opinion?
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
riley2112 said:
It has been determined in my mind.( subject to change upon new information) :yes:
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Ok, but whats the information that determined in your mind that it's a who? By saying it's a who, you've limited the possiblities that you're willing to accept. Btw, matter can't be created or destroyed. So, asking the question "who" created matter is non-sensical.
 
riley2112

riley2112

Active Member
Tristesse said:
OK, but whats the information that determined in your mind that it's a who? By saying it's a who, you've limited the possiblities that you're willing to accept. Btw, matter can't be created or destroyed. So, asking the question "who" created matter is non-sensical.
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OK, The information that determined in my mind that it is a who, is the fact that I look around and see a design with purpose , which to me indicates an intelligent designer. As for Matter not being able to be created or destroyed, well, all we really know is that man does not know how it is created or destroyed , other than that it is just a lot of guess work. Also I have only limited the possibilities that I have already found absurd, which leaves me open to any new possibilities that I have yet to consider.
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
riley2112 said:
OK, The information that determined in my mind that it is a who, is the fact that I look around and see a design with purpose , which to me indicates an intelligent designer. As for Matter not being able to be created or destroyed, well, all we really know is that man does not know how it is created or destroyed , other than that it is just a lot of guess work. Also I have only limited the possibilities that I have already found absurd, which leaves me open to any new possibilities that I have yet to consider.
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You look around and see design? How so? Because what you would probably consider design, is actually a natural process. Design has to be demonstrated and not asserted, and I realize that this is something that is in your mind, but it's based on a preconcieved notion.
 
riley2112

riley2112

Active Member
Tristesse said:
You look around and see design? How so? Because what you would probably consider design, is actually a natural process. Design has to be demonstrated and not asserted, and I realize that this is something that is in your mind, but it's based on a preconcieved notion.
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Yes I look around and see design , Intelligent design begins with observations about the types of information that we can observe produced by intelligent agents in the real world. Even the atheist zoologist Richard Dawkins says that intuitively, "biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose". Plus the fact that I was at one time , what you would call a nonbeliever or at least believed that God was just a nice story to tell the kids. But that is not the case now.
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
riley2112 said:
Yes I look around and see design , Intelligent design begins with observations about the types of information that we can observe produced by intelligent agents in the real world.
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So, what you're saying is that you look around and see design in the world and therefor it was designed? And if I were to tell you that when I look around I don't see design therfor it wasn't designed, our arguments are the same. And they're both filled with logical fallacies. This is a terrible way to deduce design or non-design.

riley2112 said:
Even the atheist zoologist Richard Dawkins says that intuitively, "biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose". Plus the fact that I was at one time , what you would call a nonbeliever or at least believed that God was just a nice story to tell the kids. But that is not the case now.
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Why does it matter what richard dawkins says? He is not convinced that design or purpose is the result.
 
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