Are atheists liars, deniers or..?

[Quintessence]

Saying atheists are "liars" or "deniers" is an understandable but absurd error. Adoption of any particular idea or ideology requires learning and training in it. To use an analogy, we can think of theology as being like mathematics. To those who have learned various mathematical principles, they are obvious. But they forget what it was like to not know any of those principles, and what it takes to learn them. Understanding the gods isn't automatic, it has to be taught and learned, just like mathematics or any other subject or discipline. Once you know the discipline, yes, you'll feel it's obvious. But it isn't. And just like some people suck at math, some people suck at theology. They just won't get it, no matter how many times it's explained. There's nothing wrong with that either. We've all different skills and aptitudes, different interests and proclivities. It seems wiser to follow one's strengths and not worry about how one sucks at math or theology or whatever it is. You can always consult someone who has those strengths for help in that area if you have need of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Muslims are warned punishments and u can see how they live
Let alone atheists

?

This does not seem to address the subject matter of the thread at all.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The Roman writer Sallustius (On the gods and the cosmos), who believed in reincarnation, speculated that atheists might be people who'd behaved so appallingly in their last life that being cold-shouldered by the gods was their punishment in this one: i.e. it wasn't that they denied the gods, but that the gods denied them.

 

[suncowiam]

Over and over again, the question presents itself as to why an atheist simply doesn't believe in God or religion.

Why is this so hard to understand?

If I told you there was a gold brick inside a box, what is the first thing you're going to do to believe me?

It doesn't take a billion threads on this subject to answer it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Over and over again, the question presents itself as to why an atheist simply doesn't believe in God or religion.

Why is this so hard to understand?

If I told you there was a gold brick inside a box, what is the first thing you're going to do to believe me?

It doesn't take a billion threads on this subject to answer it.

But they really, really, really want to believe there's a gold brick inside that box. And if don't believe as well, it's somehow threatening. Ergo, endless threads/discussions repeating the same ultimately hollow arguments over and over.

 

[Altfish]

I think you completely misinterpreted my post.

Edit: do you realize that I'm an atheist?

Apologies, I should have realised it was so outrageous

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, first of all I really don't hear any quality non-atheists saying atheists are liars and deniers. The thread title comes off like someone who needs a good rant.

Lucky you. Theists, pretty much Christians in these parts, are notorious for saying Atheists are just "angry at god," that they are "inherently immoral," and then there is the every so childish and immature "God doesn't believe in Atheists." More or less, Atheism is viewed as a negative personality trait.

I do NOT consider a belief in a deity vital. I don't know any other non-believer who does.

Many theists do. When I was a Baptist, life, according to them, is just without meaning, full of being a slave to sin, and just isn't worth living unless you have God.

The promise of Allah will come true, it is only time that makes them feel it wont happen.

Christians, Hindus, they all have their "promises." But none of them will ever happen.

And yet, it perplexes me how you cannot appreciate the 'argument from design'.

Because this is a totally illogical argument. Cancer in children? Parasites that eat their host from the inside out? Radiation from the sun? If it was designed, it was designed by a psychopath

 

[james bond]

Or insert any other theory about why atheists don't believe. It's interesting, because this accusation is sometimes thrown around by some members on RF.

If god is so evident, how come I don't feel it is? If god was obvious, I wouldn't have spent all this time searching, praying to get a sign, reading books and so on. It would just be obvious and I would just believe in god. I don't reject the possibility of a god existing, I just don't have a reason to believe it does because I don't see it as obvious.

What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that? Why does god expect me to believe when I can't even verify anything? People in the past had god talk directly to them and prophets talked to god, why can't I? I tried many times, never worked. All I hear in my head is my own voice, and outside of my head, nothing.

If god exists, it created me with a mind that questions things, that can't believe just because someone tells me to. My mind was made to accept evidence that was tested, born from sound theories and inquisition. My mind accepts there are mysteries, maybe some will never be understood, but science has a tract record of revealing these mysteries and finding how things work rather than just assuming "god did it". Then if god exists and he knows this is how my mind works, it makes no sense for it to think I would just believe. Think about it.

It's much easier to just think that atheists or non-theists are defective, liars or deniers than to admit that maybe that "theory" is wrong and god isn't obvious. I'll be the first to admit being wrong if I could come upon how evident god is. I'm not sure I can say the same of people who throw these accusations around.

I'm sorry for my harsh tone but it really bothers me when people say things like that. You don't know every atheist's life and how some either believed in the past or tried to believe but couldn't. Speaking for myself, I wanted so badly to believe that god exists, to the point of trying to fool myself, and yet nothing happened. I struggled so much. You have no idea of the hardships in my life and how it would be easier if I could believe in a god.

This thread does come off as a rant, but I've put it in this section so that people can speak freely and debate.

*Closet Communists.* First, they want socialism and then communism and then... We've seen the left go further left and the right go further right.

 

[Spiderman]

Atheists aren't willing to play God's annoying games

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because this is a totally illogical argument. Cancer in children? Parasites that eat their host from the inside out? Radiation from the sun? If it was designed, it was designed by a psychopath

You misunderstand: only complex or elegant nice things need a creator. Complex or elegant nasty things can arise on their own.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

*Closet Communists.* First, they want socialism and then communism and then... We've seen the left go further left and the right go further right.

Actually, the "Left," though including Communists, Anarchists, and Socialist, does not make everyone one-in-the-same or mean we all have the same goals.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I hope this does not seem off topic and just adds a little fun.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that?
.

like multiverses? as long as you apply the same skepticism to atheism!

If you see the word 'HELP' written on a deserted island beach in rocks- no evidence of anyone ever being there. Do you suspect the random action of the waves, or that somehow intelligent agency was involved?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You misunderstand: only complex or elegant nice things need a creator. Complex or elegant nasty things can arise on their own.

No, the bad things are actually the fault of people, somehow.

 

[Willamena]

What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that? Why does god expect me to believe when I can't even verify anything? People in the past had god talk directly to them and prophets talked to god, why can't I? I tried many times, never worked. All I hear in my head is my own voice, and outside of my head, nothing.

If god exists, it created me with a mind that questions things, that can't believe just because someone tells me to. My mind was made to accept evidence that was tested, born from sound theories and inquisition. My mind accepts there are mysteries, maybe some will never be understood, but science has a tract record of revealing these mysteries and finding how things work rather than just assuming "god did it". Then if god exists and he knows this is how my mind works, it makes no sense for it to think I would just believe. Think about it.

Well said. Empiricism provided an answer to the question of the unobvious god, as there, in that regard, it was the same as the unobvious universe. Immanuel Kant cleanly divided what we can from what we cannot comprehend (phenomenon from 'noumenon'), with a theory of fundamental knowledge, based off the "Justified, True Belief," which spawned a discussion about what commonly came to be known as The Problem of Knowledge. I think that people who still cling to the idea that minds present an interpretive or inexact replica of an external real world (The Matrix) are essentially investing in something similar to a god (real world) that shapes the world and informs everything that we 'know'--unseen, eternal, and immanent.

Further reading: http://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil1020/Kant.pdf

 

[suncowiam]

like multiverses? as long as you apply the same skepticism to atheism!

If you see the word 'HELP' written on a deserted island beach in rocks- no evidence of anyone ever being there. Do you suspect the random action of the waves, or that somehow intelligent agency was involved?

Hey look. Jesus is everywhere!

21 images of Jesus and other religious figures seen in strange things and places

Now can we just end this silly debate already?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Roman writer Sallustius (On the gods and the cosmos), who believed in reincarnation, speculated that atheists might be people who'd behaved so appallingly in their last life that being cold-shouldered by the gods was their punishment in this one: i.e. it wasn't that they denied the gods, but that the gods denied them.

Well, the Gods must be giving almost everyone the cold shoulder since most people don't believe in them anymore. So that's a silly argument to use.

 

[columbus]

If you see the word 'HELP' written on a deserted island beach in rocks- no evidence of anyone ever being there. Do you suspect the random action of the waves, or that somehow intelligent agency was involved?

If I knew Chinese and Arabic, but not European languages, I probably would think "odd", but wouldn't think intelligent agency.
Tom

 

[Guy Threepwood]

If I knew Chinese and Arabic, but not European languages, I probably would think "odd", but wouldn't think intelligent agency.
Tom

So you'd put this odd design down to the random action of the waves- would you be right or wrong?

 

[Soundwave99]

Note: This response is only about one the Fundamnetalist Christians/Jews/Muslims/Pagans/Hindus/ whatever who say that atheists are denying the existence of God(s), not all Fundamentalists. I try to make this clear in my post, but I want to make sure that this is clear. Unlike the people I'm talking about in this post, I don't make sweeping generalizations about huge groups of people I know nothing about. I also wrote this using Abrahamic terms, although it still equally applies to Fundies of other religions.


It's only a matter of time you spend on this site before you encounter some Fundie screeching about how atheists know God exist and are just denying god despite all the "evidence". Of course, if they show their "evidence" (there's at least a 50% chance they won't and just won't respond when asked about this "evidence"...I wonder why), it's a joke. If you consider any of this "evidence" to be sufficient...you don't know what evidence is and should not be on a debate forum (or the internet in general, given all the nonsense online). Their "evidence" is usually something stupid along the lines of "We can't explain [complexity of life/morality/origins of the universe/consciousness/insert thing that is complex or we don't fully understand here], therefore GOD!!!!l. CHECKMATE, LOL STUPID ATHEISTS!!!! UR JUST DENYING GOD AND I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT!!!!!"

They also seem to always strawman the atheist position. The VAST MAJORITY of atheists don't say that there is no God and instead say that they don't believe in God (usually due to a lack of evidence). So Psalm 53:1 is irrelevant. The fact that these Fundies use this Psalm as an argument show that THEY are the real fools, because they don't even take the time to understand the position they're arguing against.

Ironically (or not), the Fundies who say these things are really the ones who do them. They say atheists are closed-minded, but really they're the closed-minded ones because they just "know" that their position is right. Alternatively, this could be an ego thing, thinking their opinions are above being challenged. They say atheists are denying reason, logic, God, common sense, etc. while they deny any holes in their beliefs. They say atheists hate God, but really they just want an excuse to hate people who don't share their beliefs. Ironic how they always rant and rave about "hypocrites", yet never look in the mirror. Look, I try to respect people and their beliefs as much as I can even though I disagree with them. But I refuse to respect either the beliefs of or the people themselves who hate me and probably want me dead.

They say God is on their side, but really they're no different than any other hater caught up in their feelings . And if their beliefs do somehow turn out to be true, I'd rather burn in Hell and be tortured for eternity than have to spend it with the Fundies who say this nonsense.