Are atheists liars, deniers or..?

[Neo Deist]

Here's the thing about belief in God: it isn't just something that people intellectually assent to; it's something that people consider absolutely vital.

Except for deists...

 

[illykitty]

like multiverses? as long as you apply the same skepticism to atheism!

If you see the word 'HELP' written on a deserted island beach in rocks- no evidence of anyone ever being there. Do you suspect the random action of the waves, or that somehow intelligent agency was involved?

I dont know if the multiverses exist, it's way beyond me. As for your example, The problem is that I don't see any "help" written in the sand. Maybe there's a vague pattern and you personally interpret it as a message. I see a few rocks scrambled around in a random pattern whilst you insist it "clearly" is someone that spelled out "help". The human brain is fascinating in that it can see patterns in a lot of things, thats how we got the constellations for instance.

Also I have to note that so far, all the responses that have validated my post don't seem to have read it (or at least not with care). Either that or it's inconvieniant to aknowledge my attempts, the silence, the problems I encountered and thus resort to throwing rehearsed answers.

 

[illykitty]

Saying atheists are "liars" or "deniers" is an understandable but absurd error. Adoption of any particular idea or ideology requires learning and training in it. To use an analogy, we can think of theology as being like mathematics. To those who have learned various mathematical principles, they are obvious. But they forget what it was like to not know any of those principles, and what it takes to learn them. Understanding the gods isn't automatic, it has to be taught and learned, just like mathematics or any other subject or discipline. Once you know the discipline, yes, you'll feel it's obvious. But it isn't. And just like some people suck at math, some people suck at theology. They just won't get it, no matter how many times it's explained. There's nothing wrong with that either. We've all different skills and aptitudes, different interests and proclivities. It seems wiser to follow one's strengths and not worry about how one sucks at math or theology or whatever it is. You can always consult someone who has those strengths for help in that area if you have need of it.

Like you said, it's not obvious. I couldn't understand you the first time I encountered your posts and unfortunately I dont encounter many people like you. Many have a classical monotheistic concept box, regardless of being theist or atheist.

But do you think if someone had a similar level of understanding to yours or better would still possibly identify as an atheist?

Well you know that you have influenced my views and definitions of gods and theological concepts, but my problem arises when people attempt to force a specific concept on others and then throw accusations when one doesn't accept that concept. Accusations are then thrown and one is called a liar, hypocrite and somon.

Using a similar definition of gods as you do it could be argued I have gods which I revere and are central to my behaviour in life. And to those that use more of a classical one, I'd be considered an atheist and/or materialistic pantheist.

For anyone confused by this, honestly I don't blame you, it's complicated! I don't make any claims to know this stuff, I'm a newbie.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, first of all I really don't hear any quality non-atheists saying atheists are liars and deniers. The thread title comes off like someone who needs a good rant.

That's kind of a self-fulfilling truth though. 'quality' is a judgement call, so all you're really saying is that people who judge atheists in this 2-dimensional fashion aren't 'quality' theists, with 'quality' being a judgement on their rationalism rather than their faith. Fair enough, but to be clear, I have often heard variations of the 'open your heart and you'll find God' nonsense, primarily from Christians and Muslims. Also to be clear, there are a lot of Christians and Muslims who DON'T fall into this trap, and see atheists as whole people, with good/bad/honest/liars just like any other group.

But anyway, you might want to consider more eastern/pantheistic views also, that God and creation are not-two. You may be trying to find a God external to you when God may be internal. I believe consciousness is all One and by quieting the noise in our heads we can start the process of feeling the peace and unity as opposed to being separates external to each other. Just some food for thought.

Exploration of other paradigms and belief systems is good advice.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I dont know if the multiverses exist, it's way beyond me. As for your example, The problem is that I don't see any "help" written in the sand. Maybe there's a vague pattern and you personally interpret it as a message. I see a few rocks scrambled around in a random pattern whilst you insist it "clearly" is someone that spelled out "help". The human brain is fascinating in that it can see patterns in a lot of things, thats how we got the constellations for instance.

Also I have to note that so far, all the responses that have validated my post don't seem to have read it (or at least not with care). Either that or it's inconvieniant to aknowledge my attempts, the silence, the problems I encountered and thus resort to throwing rehearsed answers.

Point being, that you would deduce intelligent agency in this case without any direct empirical evidence, because there are other forms of evidence, power of explanation, logical deduction.

And this applies to any explanation for our existence, we're all taking our best guess, there is no 'default' -no precedent for how universes are 'usually' created and hence the burden of proof lies with any explanation, they must stand on their own merits

So if there is a denial in atheism, it is a denial of it's own faith. Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself as such.

 

[illykitty]

I made an edit to clarify things in the original post, or at least I hope it does. I need to work at that some more. It was meant to be more specific.

 

[james bond]

Actually, the "Left," though including Communists, Anarchists, and Socialist, does not make everyone one-in-the-same or mean we all have the same goals.

OT: I wasn't implying they were, but pointing out the trend is to the far left. For example, Hillary Clinton and her pals are further to the left now than they were before Obama took over. What I don't like about the Democratic Party are the superdelegates instead of just delegates. Bernie Sanders had to have superdelegates in his corner in order to secure the nomination. He had zilch. Thus, Clinton was guaranteed to secure the nomination before the party's election even if Sanders won. Look at all the money she had over Sanders. If I was a Democrat, then I would be a DINO and their voices aren't heard in the party. I would've voted for Sanders. I thought Trump would be different, but it appears that he has kowtowed to big money and the far right in naming his cabinet. That's a huge disappointment. The only reason I'm a Pub is because I do better under capitalism than socialism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wasn't implying they were, but pointing out the trend is to the far left. For example, Hillary Clinton and her pals are further to the left now than they were before Obama took over.

Hardly. Bernie Sanders is the Left-most politician in Washington, quiet a few steps to the Left from the average Democrat and Liberal. None of them are advocated the government take over of any businesses.

 

[james bond]

Hardly. Bernie Sanders is the Left-most politician in Washington, quiet a few steps to the Left from the average Democrat and Liberal. None of them are advocated the government take over of any businesses.

Ha ha. Well, he fooled me. He's more libertarian, too. I just checked. Clinton is about the same far left, too, but more populist. I want somebody closer to the center.

Sanders
Bernie Sanders on the Issues

Clinton
Hillary Clinton on the Issues

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ha ha. Well, he fooled me. He's more libertarian, too. I just checked. Clinton is about the same far left, too, but more populist. I want somebody closer to the center.

Sanders
Bernie Sanders on the Issues

Clinton
Hillary Clinton on the Issues

Largely and mostly, social issues are a given on the Left. We tend to not need a special label indicating we are pro-gay marriage, pro-pot, and so on. As for Sanders, he is a Socialist Democrat.

 

[LuisDantas]

Muslims are warned punishments and u can see how they live
Let alone atheists

Oh, wait. Are you meaning to say that of course atheists, lacking the fear of God that would be a needed deterrent, will lie and deny at least as much as Muslims?

That is not at all true, but even leaving that aside, the OP clearly addresses "lies" and "denial" on the matter of whether we believe in God's existence".

 

[JustWondering]

Note: This response is only about one the Fundamnetalist Christians/Jews/Muslims/Pagans/Hindus/ whatever who say that atheists are denying the existence of God(s), not all Fundamentalists. I try to make this clear in my post, but I want to make sure that this is clear. Unlike the people I'm talking about in this post, I don't make sweeping generalizations about huge groups of people I know nothing about. I also wrote this using Abrahamic terms, although it still equally applies to Fundies of other religions.


It's only a matter of time you spend on this site before you encounter some Fundie screeching about how atheists know God exist and are just denying god despite all the "evidence". Of course, if they show their "evidence" (there's at least a 50% chance they won't and just won't respond when asked about this "evidence"...I wonder why), it's a joke. If you consider any of this "evidence" to be sufficient...you don't know what evidence is and should not be on a debate forum (or the internet in general, given all the nonsense online). Their "evidence" is usually something stupid along the lines of "We can't explain [complexity of life/morality/origins of the universe/consciousness/insert thing that is complex or we don't fully understand here], therefore GOD!!!!l. CHECKMATE, LOL STUPID ATHEISTS!!!! UR JUST DENYING GOD AND I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT!!!!!"

They also seem to always strawman the atheist position. The VAST MAJORITY of atheists don't say that there is no God and instead say that they don't believe in God (usually due to a lack of evidence). So Psalm 53:1 is irrelevant. The fact that these Fundies use this Psalm as an argument show that THEY are the real fools, because they don't even take the time to understand the position they're arguing against.

Ironically (or not), the Fundies who say these things are really the ones who do them. They say atheists are closed-minded, but really they're the closed-minded ones because they just "know" that their position is right. Alternatively, this could be an ego thing, thinking their opinions are above being challenged. They say atheists are denying reason, logic, God, common sense, etc. while they deny any holes in their beliefs. They say atheists hate God, but really they just want an excuse to hate people who don't share their beliefs. Ironic how they always rant and rave about "hypocrites", yet never look in the mirror. Look, I try to respect people and their beliefs as much as I can even though I disagree with them. But I refuse to respect either the beliefs of or the people themselves who hate me and probably want me dead.

They say God is on their side, but really they're no different than any other hater caught up in their feelings . And if their beliefs do somehow turn out to be true, I'd rather burn in Hell and be tortured for eternity than have to spend it with the Fundies who say this nonsense.

Fundies like the ones you described are a blessing in disguise for atheists though. One of them does more damage to and drives more people away from their crazy beliefs than 1000 atheists could. Just let them do their thing.

 

[Soundwave99]

Fundies like the ones you described are a blessing in disguise for atheists though. One of them does more damage to and drives more people away from their crazy beliefs than 1000 atheists could. Just let them do their thing.

I like how you think. Seriously though, I do agree that those Fundies will push people away. However, they do concern me since they want to either convert me (often by any means necessary, even through legislation), harass me or in extreme cases (ISIS) kill me. Annnnnnd I live in the US where a bunch of them are about to take office. So I'm a bit worried about Fundies and what they can do.

 

[interminable]

Oh, wait. Are you meaning to say that of course atheists, lacking the fear of God that would be a needed deterrent, will lie and deny at least as much as Muslims?

That is not at all true, but even leaving that aside, the OP clearly addresses "lies" and "denial" on the matter of whether we believe in God's existence".

Sir
I wanna say for accepting something regardless of representing logical arguments and evidences the debaters should have scruple.
Without this everything that exchange between them maybe is useless because the other side doesn't believe that he shouldn't tell lie. Or at least he doesn't expect punishment for denial and ....honesty is very important. I don't know how we can prove it

 

[LuisDantas]

Sir
I wanna say for accepting something regardless of representing logical arguments and evidences the debaters should have scruple.

Then we are in agreement on that much.

It is too bad that this does not seem to lead us too far towards the same conclusions.

Without this everything that exchange between them maybe is useless because the other side doesn't believe that he shouldn't tell lie. Or at least he doesn't expect punishment for denial and ....honesty is very important. I don't know how we can prove it

Two issues here.

First, I take it that when an atheist is called "denier" simply by virtue of being na atheist, what is meant is presumably that somehow the person is not truly an atheist, but someone who oddly believers or knows of the existence of a god yet refuses to admit so. Hence "denier", after "denial of (the existence) of (a) god".

My apologies if that is not what you mean by "denier" and "denial".

But if it is, then, as we use to say in the English language, it is a simple matter of the shoes not fitting. The idea that atheists are deniers is very much a fantasy without connection to the reality of facts.

My second issue is that you seem to believe that to avoid lies it is somehow useful or perhaps even necessary to fear being punished, presumably by a temporary or permanente stay in some form of hell after death.

Such a belief, I am sorry to say, is just not worth keeping at all. It is neither healthy nor useful nor accurate, and causes quite a lot of damage. It also causes the perhaps lesser harm of encouraging those wild misconceptions about atheists.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This thread does come off as a rant, but I've put it in this section so that people can speak freely and debate.

I am a member of a religious community and find that most people I come across are reasonable and courteous. However I've experienced attitudes from the occasional atheist that have left me cold. Respect and courtesy works both ways and when two peope argue about religion they are both wrong.

 

[interminable]

Then we are in agreement on that much.

It is too bad that this does not seem to lead us too far towards the same conclusions.



Two issues here.

First, I take it that when an atheist is called "denier" simply by virtue of being na atheist, what is meant is presumably that somehow the person is not truly an atheist, but someone who oddly believers or knows of the existence of a god yet refuses to admit so. Hence "denier", after "denial of (the existence) of (a) god".

My apologies if that is not what you mean by "denier" and "denial".

But if it is, then, as we use to say in the English language, it is a simple matter of the shoes not fitting. The idea that atheists are deniers is very much a fantasy without connection to the reality of facts.

My second issue is that you seem to believe that to avoid lies it is somehow useful or perhaps even necessary to fear being punished, presumably by a temporary or permanente stay in some form of hell after death.

Such a belief, I am sorry to say, is just not worth keeping at all. It is neither healthy nor useful nor accurate, and causes quite a lot of damage. It also causes the perhaps lesser harm of encouraging those wild misconceptions about atheists.

If I could convince u to write simply this would be a miracle[emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16]

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm sorry for my harsh tone but it really bothers me when people say things like that.

Are you suggesting that atheists are Republican? I'm shocked. What a heinous accusation!

 

[LuisDantas]

If I could convince u to write simply this would be a miracle[emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16]

It is my experience that without a certain degree of variation and redundance in my writing people will often fail to read what I write and instead pick and choose sparse elements to confirm what they want to read instead. I decided to block that if I could help it.

In any case, since you ask, I will try a simpler wording now.

1. Fear of punishment in hell is not helpful in encouraging people not to lie.

2. Nor is that fear useful in making people more moral in other ways, either. Fear and morality are not friends to each other.

3. Atheism is not at all caused by "lying" about the matter of existence of God. We, quite simply, do not believe in the existence of a god. It is really that simple.

4. Calling an atheist a "denier" is just strange. What would there be to be denied?

 

[paarsurrey]

Or insert any other theory about why atheists don't believe. It's interesting, because this accusation is sometimes thrown around by some members on RF.

EDIT: I should have made this more clear, I'm talking mainly of a rigid concept of god here, mostly in a classical monotheistic sense. Also even if you do espouse such a god concept, it's possible you do not make such accusations so no worries here, I'm ranting about those who do.

If god is so evident, how come I don't feel it is? If god was obvious, I wouldn't have spent all this time searching, praying to get a sign, reading books and so on. It would just be obvious and I would just believe in god. I don't reject the possibility of a god existing, I just don't have a reason to believe it does because I don't see it as obvious.

What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that? Why does god expect me to believe when I can't even verify anything? People in the past had god talk directly to them and prophets talked to god, why can't I? I tried many times, never worked. All I hear in my head is my own voice, and outside of my head, nothing.

If god exists, it created me with a mind that questions things, that can't believe just because someone tells me to. My mind was made to accept evidence that was tested, born from sound theories and inquisition. My mind accepts there are mysteries, maybe some will never be understood, but science has a tract record of revealing these mysteries and finding how things work rather than just assuming "god did it". Then if god exists and he knows this is how my mind works, it makes no sense for it to think I would just believe. Think about it.

It's much easier to just think that atheists or non-theists are defective, liars or deniers than to admit that maybe that "theory" is wrong and god isn't obvious. I'll be the first to admit being wrong if I could come upon how evident god is. I'm not sure I can say the same of people who throw these accusations around.

I'm sorry for my harsh tone but it really bothers me when people say things like that. You don't know every atheist's life and how some either believed in the past or tried to believe but couldn't. Speaking for myself, I wanted so badly to believe that god exists, to the point of trying to fool myself, and yet nothing happened. I struggled so much. You have no idea of the hardships in my life and how it would be easier if I could believe in a god.

This thread does come off as a rant, but I've put it in this section so that people can speak freely and debate.

I never use such words about Atheists or like of them.
They are just wrong. Please
Regards