Are babies atheist?

[Willamena]

That's what I've been saying. They are included in the definition of the term "atheist".

No, they are included in the group "atheist."

They are included, but it's not because of their ignorance of gods that they are included, it is because there is "no god" in their worldview.

The definition of atheist is directly drawn from atheism, which is a lack of belief in God or gods. Ignorance of God or gods is another kettle. 'Ignorance of' and 'lack of belief in' have different connotations: one points to knowledge, and the other belief. Those are distinct topics. Definition is precise, so addresses the pertinent characteristic.

 

[leibowde84]

No, they are included in the group "atheist."

They are included, but it's not because of their ignorance of gods that they are included, it is because there is "no god" in their worldview.

The definition of atheist is directly drawn from atheism, which is a lack of belief in God or gods. Ignorance of God or gods is another kettle. 'Ignorance of' and 'lack of belief in' have different connotations: one points to knowledge, and the other belief. Those are distinct topics. Definition is precise, so addresses the pertinent characteristic.

I never said it was because of their ignorance. They are atheists despite their ignorance because they are without theism. The definition includes them because they are without belief in the existence of God or gods.

 

[Willamena]

I never said it was because of their ignorance. They are atheists despite their ignorance because they are without theism. The definition includes them because they are without belief in the existence of God or gods.

That's equivocating, if the reason that they are "without theism" is because they are ignorant of gods.

 

[leibowde84]

That's equivocating, if the reason that they are "without theism" is because they are ignorant of gods.

According to the definition of the extremely broad term "atheism", the reason they lack belief in God or gods does not matter. I am not equivocating. I am being completely open in saying that they are ignorant and that is why they are without belief. If they are without the belief, they are athiest.

 

[Thief]

That's what I've been saying. They are included in the definition of the term "atheist".

try reading her post again

 

[Thief]

According to the definition of the extremely broad term "atheism", the reason they lack belief in God or gods does not matter. I am not equivocating. I am being completely open in saying that they are ignorant and that is why they are without belief. If they are without the belief, they are athiest.

atheism is a label
you can't wear the label without the declaration.....there is no god

putting labels on babies.....is childish

 

[leibowde84]

try reading her post again

Why?

 

[leibowde84]

atheism is a label
you can't wear the label without the declaration.....there is no god

putting labels on babies.....is childish

Why do you think that a declaration must accompany a label when so many labels require no such thing?

 

[Thief]

Why do you think that a declaration must accompany a label when so many labels require no such thing?

so put your label on an empty cardboard box
stand on it
and see if you can use it for a podium

 

[Willamena]

"Atheism" is lack of belief in "God" or gods. A worldview is the set of beliefs that a person holds, so atheism creates a group for whom a god is nowhere (i.e. lacking) in their worldview.

"Belief in god" is an attitude of truth towards "God" or a god, or the concept of the thing. In other wording, it is the state of mind in which a person holds something to actually be the case.

"Ignorance of god" is not knowing about, or never having been introduced to the concept of, a god. A person is incapable of having a state of mind about something they have never encountered, even in concept. They are incapable of holding an attitude of truth about something they have not even the slightest concept of.

This is the argument against babies and rocks being atheists.

I admittedly have never understood the argument that equates lacking belief with being ignorant. It seems to me to support a belief that thoughts are objects in the mind, but that's absurd. Thought is the mind, no more or less, and no part of it is ever "lacking" in that sense.

 

[leibowde84]

so put your label on an empty cardboard box
stand on it
and see if you can use it for a podium

So, now you are agreeing that labels don't require a declaration?

 

[Thief]

So, now you are agreeing that labels don't require a declaration?

you know what I mean.....

you are not slick enough to win this debate

 

[leibowde84]

you know what I mean.....

you are not slick enough to win this debate

I actually don't know what you mean.

Are you admitting now that labels don't require a declaration from the subject? That labels can be accurate by definition?

 

[Thief]

I actually don't know what you mean.

Are you admitting now that labels don't require a declaration from the subject? That labels can be accurate by definition?

if the baby declares himself as atheist.......ok

 

[leibowde84]

if the baby declares himself as atheist.......ok

A declaration is not required for anyone to be considered an atheist, according to the definition of the term.

 

[Thief]

A declaration is not required for anyone to be considered an atheist, according to the definition of the term.

and people of ignorance can do so?
I think not

there are two levels of ignorance
they who are not informed are ignorant

and then there people who choose to ignore
that level is profound and there is no cure

babies are not atheists
the cure of their ignorance is pending
and as the years go by they will make their own judgement call

they don't need you for that

 

[idav]

"Atheism" is lack of belief in "God" or gods. A worldview is the set of beliefs that a person holds, so atheism creates a group for whom a god is nowhere (i.e. lacking) in their worldview.

"Belief in god" is an attitude of truth towards "God" or a god, or the concept of the thing. In other wording, it is the state of mind in which a person holds something to actually be the case.

"Ignorance of god" is not knowing about, or never having been introduced to the concept of, a god. A person is incapable of having a state of mind about something they have never encountered, even in concept. They are incapable of holding an attitude of truth about something they have not even the slightest concept of.

This is the argument against babies and rocks being atheists.

I admittedly have never understood the argument that equates lacking belief with being ignorant. It seems to me to support a belief that thoughts are objects in the mind, but that's absurd. Thought is the mind, no more or less, and no part of it is ever "lacking" in that sense.

You might say that an atheist does not blame god for anything. Theists on the other hand blame god for lots of things, this that and that, look how many times the atheists was wrong in their worldview.

 

[Willamena]

You might say that an atheist does not blame god for anything. Theists on the other hand blame god for lots of things, this that and that, look how many times the atheists was wrong in their worldview.

There is no right or wrong in the worldview, it just is.

 

[leibowde84]

and people of ignorance can do so?
I think not

there are two levels of ignorance
they who are not informed are ignorant

and then there people who choose to ignore
that level is profound and there is no cure

babies are not atheists
the cure of their ignorance is pending
and as the years go by they will make their own judgement call

they don't need you for that

I agree with all of this except for your claim that babies are not atheists, as you haven't provided any reasoning whatsoever to back up your claim that the definition of atheism does not cover babies. Nothing you wrote here has anything to do with the question at hand, though.

The term "atheism" covers everyone who lacks belief in the existence of gods. To "lack" means to "be without". To "be without theism" only requires that a person not believe in the existence of God or gods. There is no requirement for a declaration of any kind. Everyone who is ignorant of the concept of deities is, by definition, an atheist.

Now, what part of my argument are you having trouble with? What specifically are you claiming isn't true?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To be "without" is indeed the "opposite" of to be "with" belief.

Still, and regardless, "someone ignorant of God or gods" is not the definition of atheist.

Nobody is saying that it is.