Brian2
Veteran Member
But that's not original sin is it? Is that a different type of theology you follow?
It must be. I don't follow everything that the Roman Catholic Church says.
We are judged on our own sins, not on the sins of our parents.
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But that's not original sin is it? Is that a different type of theology you follow?
Make sure that you tow the line and follow God's will, because there are scriptures that indicate that a person's salvation can be taken away by Jesus if they don't follow God's will. His parable of the sheep and the goats is one example, and so is his warning in Matthew 7:21, which he said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." In my opinion, that's another conflicting message in the Bible, because Romans 10:9:13 says that if someone declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they'll be saved.
And Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." However, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus stated, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and his sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25:31-46 states the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. However, the "goats" in this parable were lambasted by Jesus for not feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in strangers, clothing the needy, and not visiting the sick or people in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. The "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior.
Could you elaborate? You mean that God created Adam and Eve through evolution?Fwiw, I both believe in evolution and also Adam and Eve. And I image God saying to those who throw Adam and Eve under the bus "Depart from me ye Darwinist-dimwits unto the outer darkness!"
It must be. I don't follow everything that the Roman Catholic Church says.
We are judged on our own sins, not on the sins of our parents.
Could you elaborate? You mean that God created Adam and Eve through evolution?
Because I do know people who believe that God did that.
That is he manipulated apes' Dna.
Psalm 51:5 - Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge. 5 Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.It must be. I don't follow everything that the Roman Catholic Church says.
We are judged on our own sins, not on the sins of our parents.
Psalm 51:5 - Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge. 5 Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.
Romans 5:12 - "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."
Sin entered the world, the Bible says. We were brought forth in iniquity, sinful upon conception. Them's the facts.
The psalmist realized there is a confined setting to sin. It's in our makeup, can't help it. Only forgiveness from God can set us straight IF we go His way.
(The way is narrow, said Jesus -- few would find it.)
To be conceived in sin seems pretty clear to me. Sin was passed on. Obviously the genetics changed since they were not originally set up to die. In Adam. Or Eve. If you think they were, oh well...Not going to argue it. Because the scriptures are clear -- everyone dies. Now. Death is the penalty of sin. We all sin, nothing we can do about it. We're born into it. Constrained. It doesn't mean we have to commit murder, adultery, things like that. But even if we never murder or do something bad like that, we die. Now. And death is the result of sin. Just like Adam & Eve died.We might be sinful from the start but we do not start sinning for a while. A baby is not guilty and does not sin until later when it starts to sin. We are condemned for our sins, not the sins of Adam and Eve or anyone else.
Maybe we could discuss what 'sin' is. That's for another thread, perhaps.There is one person that never sinned. But even people argue about that. So at a certain point, I let it go. People will believe what they want to, to an extent. The apostle Paul, formerly called Saul, was firm in his belief as a Jew, thinking he did the right thing to persecute Christians, but then -- something happened that made him realize what was true. It was life-changing for him.We might be sinful from the start but we do not start sinning for a while. A baby is not guilty and does not sin until later when it starts to sin. We are condemned for our sins, not the sins of Adam and Eve or anyone else.
To be conceived in sin seems pretty clear to me. Sin was passed on. Obviously the genetics changed since they were not originally set up to die. In Adam. Or Eve. If you think they were, oh well...Not going to argue it. Because the scriptures are clear -- everyone dies. Now. Death is the penalty of sin. We all sin, nothing we can do about it. We're born into it. Constrained. It doesn't mean we have to commit murder, adultery, things like that. But even if we never murder or do something bad like that, we die. Now. And death is the result of sin. Just like Adam & Eve died.
Romans 5:12 - When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
In the above video Stephen Lett (Governing Body member of the Jehovah's Witnesses) claims babies are, "enemies of God".
He immediately clarifies that he loves babies, but it is worth a good laugh seeing the theological clumsiness of one of 8 leaders of approx. 8.7 million people.
Which brings us to the question, are babies enemies of God in your faith tradition?
In my opinion
The sin part of humanity seems to have spread to everyone either through nature or nurture, and maybe both.
I think the usual thinking is that the soul that gets passed from the parents to the baby somehow inherits this. (That no doubt conflicts with JW theology, but I won't argue that)
None of this however says that babies sin.
Babies do die however and that imo is because we have no access to the tree of life, it is not to do with our genetics having been changed.
If you want to argue that a new born baby that dies must therefore have sinned, I would disagree.
Good question.I have a question. If you believe in reincarnation, doesn't that hold that some babies "lived evil" lives in the past?
Seems this a problem for our reincarnation friends more then Abrahamic.
I have a question. If you believe in reincarnation, doesn't that hold that some babies "lived evil" lives in the past?
Seems this a problem for our reincarnation friends more then Abrahamic.
Is that what you got from what I am saying? No, I am not.
The Bible says that we (all) die because of sin. That includes babies. There is INHERITED SIN. Babies do not have moral values until they are taught right from wrong in God's eyes.
That is what the Bible says. It is also for that reason that God made sacrifices obligatory for the Israelites, to remind them that (ALL OF THEM) except Jesus were sinners, there is no escape.
1 Corinthians 7:14 brings out requirements for parents and children: Notice, please, what it says:
"For the husband that believeth not is hallowed in the wife, And the wife that believeth not is hallowed in the brother: Else were your children impure, But now are they pure." What do you think this means insofar as salvation goes? Particularly for children, which is what we are discussing here...
This translation may be a bit easier to understand: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to [his] wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy."
Let's think about why we ALL face death in part. (Because if Jesus was not killed, he would have continued living.) Do you understand why we die? According to the Bible, I mean. Because I don't want to discuss evolution as if that's the reason. (No, it's not.) Babies are not capable of making decisions, they need help from the moment they're born until they grow and learn. They can't work, can't feed themselves, can't speak, etc. So that's not the point about sin. It absolutely must be that when the death penalty was put upon Adam and Eve, their genes were altered. Causing them to grow old and weak and eventually die. Because if they had not sinned, they could have gone on without dying. I'll try to get back to this later. It's late and have a good night.1Cor 7:14 is a passage I have never understood well.
Who are you asking the question to? I don't believe in reincarnation, nor does the person in the video but that didn't stop him from labelling babies "enemies of God".I have a question. If you believe in reincarnation, doesn't that hold that some babies "lived evil" lives in the past?
Seems this a problem for our reincarnation friends more then Abrahamic.
It absolutely must be that when the death penalty was put upon Adam and Eve, their genes were altered. Causing them to grow old and weak and eventually die. Because if they had not sinned, they could have gone on without dying. I'll try to get back to this later. It's late and have a good night.
In the above video Stephen Lett (Governing Body member of the Jehovah's Witnesses) claims babies are, "enemies of God".
He immediately clarifies that he loves babies, but it is worth a good laugh seeing the theological clumsiness of one of 8 leaders of approx. 8.7 million people.
Which brings us to the question, are babies enemies of God in your faith tradition?
In my opinion