Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[Trailblazer]

Again, we have been through this before. A claim and a belief are essentially the same thing.

No, a claim and a belief absolutely are not the same thing.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

So you believe anything and everything that has not been proved to be false can therefore be assumed to be true? So I guess you have prepared to hide your thoughts from our rodent overlords?

No, that is not what I said.

I said: and it is not false unless the old world order is not being rolled up.
It is also not false unless a new world order never comes. Until then it is unknown.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes I am. How else could I have come up with such a vision and shared it with the world?

Our own self can be delusional.

The Bab on the other hand gives us this thought.

"And if anyone should reflect on the appearance of this Tree, he will undoubtedly testify to the loftiness of the Cause of God. For if one from whose life only twenty-four years have passed, and who is devoid of those sciences wherein all are learned, now reciteth verses after such fashion without thought or hesitation, writes a thousand verses of prayer in the course of five hours without pause of the pen, and produceth commentaries and learned treatises on such lofty themes as the true understanding of God and of the oneness of His Being, in a manner which doctors and philosophers confess surpasseth their power of understanding, then there is no doubt that all that hath been manifested is divinely inspired."

-- The Báb, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 109

Can you write us 1000 verses of prayer in 5 hours, without pause to consider what you will write?

I know the answer, it is a rhetorical question.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I know what you are talking about, I just disagree with you as to what is a valid prophecy.
This is YOUR conversation with yourself, not with me, as I have no interest in it.

I do wonder when people will change their approach to such topics.

Literally our lives depend upon it.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[joelr]

The old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead. Not only the Baha’is but many other people have seen this process unfolding all over the world at an ever-increasing pace but it has become even more apparent now that war has broken out in the Ukraine.

Top stories

Opinion: Putin’s assault on Ukraine will shape a new world order

How Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine Could Change the Global Order Forever

China ponders how Russia’s actions in Ukraine could reshape world order

Bury the Old World Order

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true? In the latter half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah prophesied that what we are seeing now would take place. I believe that humans will build the new world order with the assistance of God and what was revealed by Baha’u’llah.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

The phrase "new world order" in the Baháʼí Faith refers to the replacement of the collective political norms and values of the 19th century with a new system of worldwide governance that incorporates the Baháʼí ideals of unity and justice for all nations, races, creeds, and classes. The idea of world unification, both politically and spiritually, is at the heart of Baháʼí teachings.[1][2]

Baháʼu'lláh taught that the future order will be the embodiment God's scheme for mankind.[3] Later on his successors, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, interpreted "unification of mankind" as the eventual establishment of a world commonwealth, later as a democratic elected world government based on principles of equity and justice.[4]

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order_(Baháʼí)

Are you serious with this? This is complete and utter fantasy. `Many of his older vague prophecies were mapped onto events as all vague prophecies are. But the events happening right now are literally the opposite of what these prophecies are claiming? A war breaks out and you just run to prophecies in your religion and claim "look prophecies coming true!" This is super disrespectful.

Almost zero of Russian is Bahai. Zero of Urkaine is Bahai? The "world order" spoken about in these articles is NOT THE BAHAI WORLD ORDER? It has nothing to do with any such thing. It's talking about a new world where Europe and Russia who enjoyed a peaceful existence and were tired of fighting since WW2 are breaking that barrier ushering in more and more violence and war.
What would be respectful is to say "wow this stinks for the Ukraine because being invaded sucks, war sucks, losing your country sucks and this clearly isn't the New World Order my religion prophecizes will one day happen, but I hope this gets worked out peacefully!"?????????????????
Rather than use terrible current events to evangelize your religion?

Also, no there is no "new world order" unfolding? It's predicted by several sources that by 2050 Islam will be the largest religion in the world. In the U.S. atheist or non-religious demographics is rapidly growing.
So there is no "new world order" unfolding at any pace.[/QUOTE]

 

[joelr]

I did reply to the post.
#361 Trailblazer, Today at 7:49 PM

Sorry if you had your hopes up, thinking that maybe someday you might see God.
NOTHING could be more absurd. Nobody can ever see God and live.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

This is not a Baha'i thing. All Christians know that nobody has ever seen God and that God sent Jesus as His Representative on earth.

The Old Testament is anthropomorphic. Even most Jews do not believe that Moses actually saw God.

You don't get to just re-write history and claim all of the Jewish scripture is only "anthropomorphic"?
In the OT times Yahweh had a body in the myths. so much of his body was described in Hebrew that Francesca Stavrakopoulou (Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion.) new book is called
God: An Anatomy,
She explains these are not metaphors but descriptions of Yahweh and are meant literal,

In the broader southwest Asian context a deity having a form and body was common for this time.
And yes, 26:05, the Hebrew text, Yahweh has some serious loins according to Isiah.

 

[joelr]

Nobody has ever seen God at any time. The New Testament cleared up many of the misunderstandings people had about God because of al the anthropomorphism that are in the Old Testament.
It is called the NEW Testament because it is NEW. Newer scriptures always clear up misunderstandings from older scriptures

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Source: 16 Bible verses about Not Seeing God

You are quite a hypocrite to try to use a Bible you do not even believe is true to prove your point.

You do not even believe that God exists and you keep beating this into the ground just to try to prove you are right and I am wrong. Any blind person can see that is what you are doing.

That is not what the New testament is doing. There are apologetics about this, three meanings of the Hebrew word "see" and the NT is not invalidating the OT literature.
The apologetics twist and turn, as usual, and it's not really worth the trouble because the truth is these are myths and they do not need be reconciled.
But for those who take it all literal they have to jump through hoops to make it work....


“no man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

The word “ἑώρακεν” that is translated here as ‘seen’ in most of the English translations is third person singular of “ὁράω” which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive. Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with through pragmatic experience (The 1981 New Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon, p 451).

If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.

The word ‘theophany’ is derived from two Greek words, “Θεὸς” meaning God and “φωνή” meaning sound or voice. A theophany then is a hearing of the voice of God. Theophonic experiences in scripture assume many forms, yet all seem to have a singular function. They communicate the will of God to man. They provide man with a point of reference that man can comprehend. In so doing, God is demonstrating compassion for the limitations of the human mind to understand things that are beyond his ability to comprehend. In some theophonic experiences, God will accommodate only man’s sense of hearing. One only heard the voice of God. God speaking to Noah in Genesis 6 is just such an example. Another is Genesis 12 where God spoke to Abraham. Sometimes, these theophanies would be accompanied by some type of material phenomenon such as fire, wind, or earthquake as in the cases of Moses in Exodus 3, the nation of Israel in Exodus 13 and Elijah in 1Kings 19. Each of these accompanying natural phenomena would appeal to a broader range of physical senses as God sometimes chose to speak in these things. Still, at other times, God chose to assume an anthropomorphic form as in Genesis 18 when he appeared to Abraham in the company of two angels, all in human form. For further reference, one might examine these examples of anthropomorphic theophanies. What appears in each of these is the repeated phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” 22:15-18; 31:11-13; 48:15-16, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:15-23.

 

[KWED]

and they never will.... not even the Messengers will ever see God, they only hear His Voice.

We know, with absolute certainty, that the human brain can produce the experience of hearing voices, and the subject absolutely believes the experience is real and the voice is external to them.
Given this, how can you believe with any certainly that someone who says they hear god's voice is not simply experiencing a psychotic episode?

 

[KWED]

Baha'is know that God exists because of Baha'u'llah.

There you go again. You have repeatedly admitted that the only believe, you don't know. It therefore seems somewhat dishonest to keep claiming that you know.

Who would ever want to see God? Certainly not me. I am glad that God remains hidden.

If god exists, I want to see him. Why wouldn't you?

 

[KWED]

No, you don't understand. It was WW I when there was a second turn. Take notice @KWED. The banks of the Rhine covered with gore refers to the Franco-Prussia war.

Ok. Which battle was he referring to?

Whoever it was claimed it was referring to WW1, which aptly illustrates how vague and reliant on interpretation they are.
At the time, 'Germany' was a belligerent, expansionist state facing off against powerful opponents. "Predicting" that it would suffer defeat at some point is hardly miraculous.

the allies pushed Germany back across the Rhine in 1918, and then there was the armistice. That's how I remember it.

It is interesting that your "memory" of the end of WW1 has been coloured by your desire for it to correspond to an interpretation of Bahaullah's "prophesies".
The front line on Nov 11th 1918 ran through Belgium and France. It was nowhere near the Rhine.

 

[KWED]

No, a claim and a belief absolutely are not the same thing.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

Claim: State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. (OED)
Belief: An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. (OED)

Essentially the same thing.

No, that is not what I said.

I said: and it is not false unless the old world order is not being rolled up.
It is also not false unless a new world order never comes. Until then it is unknown.

So you absolutely believe a thing will happen, despite it not having happened yet, on the basis of someone saying it will happen.
Why don't you apply this principle to everything that has not happened yet?

 

[KWED]

Our own self can be delusional.

Hold on. So you admit that Bahaullah's claim to have been in contact with god could have been a delusion. So why give him so much credence?

Can you write us 1000 verses of prayer in 5 hours, without pause to consider what you will write?

Yes, I can. Because god will guide my hand.

 

[Trailblazer]

We know, with absolute certainty, that the human brain can produce the experience of hearing voices, and the subject absolutely believes the experience is real and the voice is external to them.
Given this, how can you believe with any certainly that someone who says they hear god's voice is not simply experiencing a psychotic episode?

I know by looking at the life of Baha'u'llah, His character, and what He did on His mission, as depicted in this 22 minute video.
Bahá'u'lláh -- Glory of God

I also know by reading His Writings which were written over the course of many years.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is interesting that your "memory" of the end of WW1 has been coloured by your desire for it to correspond to an interpretation of Bahaullah's "prophesies".
The front line on Nov 11th 1918 ran through Belgium and France. It was nowhere near the Rhine.

That was not given as a prophecy, it was a vision, given as a warning to Kaiser Wilhelm I.

"Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

The first turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was the first battle that was fought, the Franco-Prussian War. That is where Baha'u'lalh saw the banks of the Rhine covered with gore. O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you;

The second turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was World War I. and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

Please note that Baha'u'llah said nothing about the second turn being associated with the banks of the Rhine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Claim: State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. (OED)
Belief: An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. (OED)

Essentially the same thing.

It is not the same at all.

As nouns the difference between claim and belief

is that claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence.

What is the difference between claim and belief? | WikiDiff
https://wikidiff.com › claim › belief

So you absolutely believe a thing will happen, despite it not having happened yet, on the basis of someone saying it will happen.

I absolutely believe it will happen because Baha'ullah was an Manifestation of God who was infallible, meaning He could not make any mistakes.

Why don't you apply this principle to everything that has not happened yet?

Because I am not illogical.

 

[F1fan]

You just don't listen, do you?

I listen, and think critically. I don't listen and then blindly believe. This seems to be your complaint.

 

[Trailblazer]

There you go again. You have repeatedly admitted that the only believe, you don't know. It therefore seems somewhat dishonest to keep claiming that you know.

I have said I know that what I believe is true.

If god exists, I want to see him. Why wouldn't you?

Because I would be reduced to utter nothingness.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

Also because I like God being a mystery.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hold on. So you admit that Bahaullah's claim to have been in contact with god could have been a delusion. So why give him so much credence?

No, that is not what Tony said. He said: "Our own self can be delusional."

 

[F1fan]

What an open mind!

But that's the point, a prophesy should offer enough clarity about events that it doesn't require an open mind, or liberal interpretations. What purpose is a prophet if the predictions are vague and lead to disputes about what it means? Clarity should be clear. If the messengers and God want people to come to Baha'i then they should realize a way to do that is offer clear and concise predictions. False prophet would be vague as part of their deception, and what they would say is to repeat typical patterns of human behavior, like famine, war, despotic leaders, etc. We see threads where Christians believe Revelations is happening.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What kind of predictions did people in the Bible make?
Have you any examples?

You are a Bible expert. Don't you know?
Bible prophecy - Wikipedia
We are living in the internet age!

 

[ppp]

So, yes, you are under that mistaken impression.