Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[Trailblazer]

If the messengers and God want people to come to Baha'i then they should realize a way to do that is offer clear and concise predictions.

Messengers of God do not make predictions in order to prove who they were.

 

[F1fan]

Messengers of God do not make predictions in order to prove who they were.

Then on what basis are their statements proof of anything supernatural? Without some extraordinary information being offered what makes a message special? Just the claims of the prophet is not very good.

 

[KWED]

I know by looking at the life of Baha'u'llah, His character, and what He did on His mission, as depicted in this 22 minute video.
Bahá'u'lláh -- Glory of God

I watched that video and there didn't appear to be anything on there that showed his claims to be true rather than delusion or deception. Could you point to the parts where such evidence is presented? Thanks.

I also know by reading His Writings which were written over the course of many years.

How does that show that Bahaullah was not delusional or dishonest?

Look, I understand that you believe his claims but I am asking tor some evidence or rational argument that those claims are actually true, because I don't believe them because I require evidence or rational argument before accepting extraordinary claims.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Wow, that's a lot of creative interpreting. Is that the "official" Baha'i interpretation?

Officially, Abdulbaha says "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away", means "declaration of Muhammad".

Before Muhammad anyone who believed in Jesus, his sins was forgiven, because of Jesus sacrifice. When Muhammad came, this law was abolished.

 

[KWED]

That was not given as a prophecy, it was a vision, given as a warning to Kaiser Wilhelm I.

A vision of the future presented as a warning is pretty much the definition of "prophesy".

"Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

The first turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was the first battle that was fought, the Franco-Prussian War. That is where Baha'u'lalh saw the banks of the Rhine covered with gore. O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you;

The second turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was World War I. and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

Please note that Baha'u'llah said nothing about the second turn being associated with the banks of the Rhine.[/QUOTE] No idea what point you are trying to make here. Are you still saying that all these vague and inaccurate "prophesy visions" are somehow evidence that he was in communication with god?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then on what basis are their statements proof of anything supernatural? Without some extraordinary information being offered what makes a message special? Just the claims of the prophet is not very good.

If we had witnessed a miracle that would be proof of something supernatural. Baha'u'llah performed miracles but He never offered them as proof of who He was. Also, miracles are only proof to those people who actually witnessed them. Others can only read about them.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah received communication from God, but what constitutes evidence for one person will not necessarily constitute evidence for another person.

@Tiberius asked me if there is something that Baha'u'llah did that could ONLY have happened if he really was divinely inspired and I responded as follows:

In my opinion, there is something else that he did that could ONLY have happened if He really was divinely inspired, and that is His Writings. If one thing convinced me more than anything else that God communicated to Baha’u’llah, it was Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

I explained that in a post to another Bahai, @Dawnofhope in April 2021.

“It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind.”

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

 

[KWED]

It is not the same at all.

As nouns the difference between claim and belief

is that claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence.

What is the difference between claim and belief? | WikiDiff
https://wikidiff.com › claim › belief

Is this some kind of joke?
You can't honestly be posting that seriously.

1. I absolutely believe it will happen because Baha'ullah was an Manifestation of God who was infallible, meaning He could not make any mistakes.

2. Because I am not illogical.

I think those two statements have shown that you are.

 

[KWED]

I have said I know that what I believe is true.

Ok. How do you know it is true. Present the independently verifiable evidence that confirms your beliefs.

Because I would be reduced to utter nothingness.

Why would that have to happen? God can make himself appear as anything. He doesn't have to be lethal.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

"God's essential nature is so perfect and universal that to gaze on his being will fill the observer with the pure enlightenment and knowledge of his all-encompassing love. It is the ultimate goal for any true believer, to know god through the eyes as well as the ears and the heart".

Also because I like God being a mystery.

Why? Surely if you are devoting your entire life to something, and accepting it as the sole guide for your worldview, you should know as much about it as possible?
Does god want to hide from you?

 

[KWED]

No, that is not what Tony said. He said: "Our own self can be delusional."

Bahaullah had "his own self". And you admit that it can be delusional.
QED.

 

[Trailblazer]

I watched that video and there didn't appear to be anything on there that showed his claims to be true rather than delusion or deception. Could you point to the parts where such evidence is presented? Thanks.

The video was not for the purpose of convincing anyone that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. It was simply informational.

What made you think he was delusional or deceptive? Do you just assume that with no evidence?

How does that show that Baha'u'llah was not delusional or dishonest?

I did not say that the video shows that, as that is not the intended purpose of the video.

I realize it is a bold claim but you have to ask yourself why Baha'u'llah would lie about being a Messenger of God. What would be His motive? He suffered for 40 years at the hands of the His enemies and was imprisoned and exiled and banished from place to place. He derived no personal benefit, only untold suffering.

Look, I understand that you believe his claims but I am asking tor some evidence or rational argument that those claims are actually true, because I don't believe them because I require evidence or rational argument before accepting extraordinary claims.

I do not know what would constitute evidence for you. What is evidence to some people is not evidence to others. We are all different.

 

[Trailblazer]

A vision of the future presented as a warning is pretty much the definition of "prophesy".

You could call it that but it as not given for the purpose of proving He was a Prophet.

No idea what point you are trying to make here. Are you still saying that all these vague and inaccurate "prophesy visions" are somehow evidence that he was in communication with god?

I never said that so I cannot be STILL saying it. Look at my OP. I never said that or even implied that. I was just wondering if people see what it says in the prophecies coming true.

The prophecies are not inaccurate unless the old world order is not being rolled up and a new world order is not rising in its stead. I watch a lot of news and the political commentaries and they sure seem to think this is coming true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think those two statements have shown that you are.

You can think whatever you want to think, but it does not prove anything.
And of course you think that without even understanding why I said what I said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. How do you know it is true. Present the independently verifiable evidence that confirms your beliefs.

If you want to know the truth you have to independently investigate and verify the evidence for yourself.

Independent Investigation of Truth

Why would that have to happen? God can make himself appear as anything. He doesn't have to be lethal.

How do you know God can make himself appear as anything?
How do you know that the Eternal Essence of God would not be lethal?

Why? Surely if you are devoting your entire life to something, and accepting it as the sole guide for your worldview, you should know as much about it as possible?

I know as much as I need to know and as much as I could ever understand. That is how God reveals truth.

Does god want to hide from you?

Apparently God wants to hide, or He would not be hiding.
What do you think you can do about it if God chooses to hide?

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah had "his own self". And you admit that it can be delusional.
QED.

I never admitted that His own self can be delusional.
It is OUR own selves that can be delusional.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Almost zero of Russian is Bahai. Zero of Urkaine is Bahai? The "world order" spoken about in these articles is NOT THE BAHAI WORLD ORDER?

Correct, this is not about the Baha'i Faith, but about a new world order.

It is about what is happening in the world. Is it unfolding as per prophecies in the Baha'i Writings, about what will happen in the world, in the process of building of a new world order.

You may not be aware, that the first Baha'i house of worship was actually built in Russia, but that is another story not destined to be part of the current new world order.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Messengers of God do not make predictions in order to prove who they were.

Dammed if they do, dammed if they do not! To reflect on the sufferings of the Messengers, is to me our ultimate grief.

None have been wronged more than the Messengers have been by humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I can. Because god will guide my hand.

I hope that guidance does come.

Consider though, you may very well be crucified, or shot, you will no doubt be persecuted and ridiculed, also tortured in many ways.

Then every thing you offer, will be rejected and scorned.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The second turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was World War I. and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

Do not forget the AND, this is the 3rd level, the Lamentations of Berlin, this is the end of the 2nd world war.

All 3 conflicts are noted

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah had "his own self". And you admit that it can be delusional.
QED.

The self of Baha’u’llah is the 'Self of God', and Baha'u'llah is in no way applicable to my statement.

I suspect you know that though. If not, then one needs to read what Baha'u'llah has offered about our human self.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

The old world order is fully entrenched and doing very well. It doesn't look like going anywhere.

However, as this is a debate forum, could you give some examples of the old world order being rolled up?

The real irony is that this is clearly an attempt by a totalitarian autocrat, to roll eastern Europe back to an old world order that fell apart. There's nothing new about it at all, in any sense, and of course all world orders are new at some point anyway, so the histrionics that accompany wild claims for fulfilled religious prophecies, are as hilarious as they are baffling.

The almost tortured attempts to always bend dramatic events into prophecies, inevitable reminds me of The Life of Brian.

"BLOOD & THUNDER PROPHET: ...And the bezan shall be huge and black, and the eyes thereof red with the blood of living creatures, and the whore of Babylon shall ride forth on a three-headed serpent, and throughout the lands, there'll be a great rubbing of parts. Yeeah...

FALSE PROPHET: ...For the demon shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed! Not two or five or seven, but nine, which he will wield on all wretched sinners, sinners just like you, sir, there, and the horns shall be on the head, with which he will...

BORING PROPHET: ...Obadiah, his servants. There shall, in that time, be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment. At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one..."