Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[InvestigateTruth]

Well that directly contradict the no true Scotsman fallacy you asserted earlier.



Again this was not what you previously said.



Well so what, a claim belief or idea stands on its own merits, regardless who said it, or what book it is in. Here is KWED's post that you responded to:





The inference couldn't be clearer, people who are unbiased and fair and investigate signs will "eventually see the truth" and share your beliefs, so those that don't share your beliefs by inference must be biased, unfair, and not willing to investigate "signs". It is a textbook no true Scotsman fallacy.

I clarified what I meant earlier. Either way, I think we are in agreement that to investigate the truth, we need to be unbiased and free from fanaticism.

 

[Sheldon]

I am just saying to investigate claim of Baha'u'llah, we must first make sure we are free from love or hate, bias, and fanaticism. If we are not unbiased we cannot claim we investigated Him fairly. The conclusion is to each individual. I cannot conclude for you, and you cannot conclude for me. But it is like a case, that needs a fair and accurate judgment, to see if Baha'u'llah's claim is true or not.

I have no problem with that, but the way you worded the original claim, was different, and stated plainly that "unbiased fair people would eventually see the truth" and the context was your beliefs.

I also asked a question:

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists, or is even possible? This should be well within your means, if your beliefs lack any bias.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have no problem with that, but the way you worded the original claim, was different, and stated plainly that "unbiased fair people would eventually see the truth" and the context was your beliefs.

OK.

I also asked a question:

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists, or is even possible? This should be well within your means, if your beliefs lack any bias.

Evidence is a good word you are using.
See, an evidence is not a proof. But it is collective of evidences that can be seen as proof. So, I cannot demonstrate one single evidence as a proof. In my opinion, no body can. It is like a case going to a court. The Judge is you. You need to collect the evidences, and make a Judgement.
But, for me, as a Bahai, I suggest, to investigate Baha'u'llah's claim. This investigation is an individual effort. No nobody can do it for anyone else. Ultimately, if this investigation is done properly, accurately, and sincerely, one can judge if Baha'u'llah's claim is true or false. If He is honest or dishonest. If He is who He says He is, or not. Because He claims to be Manifestation of God. So, we have to ask Bahaullah what evidence do you have that we believe in you? This is a matter of investigation in His writings, historical narratives about Him. Obviously no body can do this investigation for others.
Of course if you ask a Bahai, what did you see from Bahaullah that made you believe in Him, they should have an answer. But, it is beyond the scope of this thread. I wouldn't mind if there was a specific thread for it.

 

[ppp]

But, for me, as a Bahai, I suggest, to investigate Baha'u'llah's claim. This investigation is an individual effort. No nobody can do it for anyone else. Ultimately, if this investigation is done properly, accurately, and sincerely, one can judge if Baha'u'llah's claim is true or false. If He is honest or dishonest. If He is who He says He is, or not. Because He claims to be Manifestation of God. So, we have to ask Bahaullah what evidence do you have that we believe in you? This is a matter of investigation in His writings, historical narratives about Him. Obviously no body can do this investigation for others

His writings are not the evidence. His writings are the claim. The only way to confirm his claim is to compare it against the reality. The claim that someone is a messenger of god is predicated on the premise that there is a god for which to be a messenger of. The existence of a god cannot be confirmed by someone's writings, no matter how eloquent.

Of course if you ask a Bahai, what did you see from Bahaullah that made you believe in Him, they should have an answer. But, it is beyond the scope of this thread. I wouldn't mind if there was a specific thread for it.

If history serves, such a thread would only yield personal testimony.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

His writings are not the evidence. His writings are the claim. The only way to confirm his claim is to compare it against the reality. The claim that someone is a messenger of god is predicated on the premise that there is a god for which to be a messenger of. The existence of a god cannot be confirmed by someone's writings, no matter how eloquent.

If history serves, such a thread would only yield personal testimony.

We wouldn't know if His writings are not evidence. Maybe in them, there are signs of divinity. we cannot tell in them there are no divinity signs, unless we read them and think about them free from prejudgement.
Because think about it. If Baha'u'llah is indeed Manifestation of God, wasn't He able to put divinity signs in His writings?

 

[ppp]

We wouldn't know if His writings are not evidence.

Sure we do. Claims are not evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sure we do. Claims are not evidence.

Not necessarily, because the writings may not just contain claims, but they may include evidences that proves the claims. We wouldn't know that unless we do a thorough investigation. We shouldn't be a too quick judge, who has a pre-judgement and then just tries to conclude his own pre-judgement that is perhaps what he likes to conclude. How would we say such a Judgement is fair?

 

[viole]

The old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead. Not only the Baha’is but many other people have seen this process unfolding all over the world at an ever-increasing pace but it has become even more apparent now that war has broken out in the Ukraine.

Top stories

Opinion: Putin’s assault on Ukraine will shape a new world order

How Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine Could Change the Global Order Forever

China ponders how Russia’s actions in Ukraine could reshape world order

Bury the Old World Order

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true? In the latter half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah prophesied that what we are seeing now would take place. I believe that humans will build the new world order with the assistance of God and what was revealed by Baha’u’llah.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

The phrase "new world order" in the Baháʼí Faith refers to the replacement of the collective political norms and values of the 19th century with a new system of worldwide governance that incorporates the Baháʼí ideals of unity and justice for all nations, races, creeds, and classes. The idea of world unification, both politically and spiritually, is at the heart of Baháʼí teachings.[1][2]

Baháʼu'lláh taught that the future order will be the embodiment God's scheme for mankind.[3] Later on his successors, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, interpreted "unification of mankind" as the eventual establishment of a world commonwealth, later as a democratic elected world government based on principles of equity and justice.[4]

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order_(Baháʼí)

The world went from old world orders, to new world orders, all the time. Making such prophecies is as amazing as prophesying that the sun will rise tomorrow.

ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here is another prophecy that is worth considering.

"Erelong the wicked-doers in that land will arise to heap denunciations upon the true believers, and vent their spite upon the company of the faithful. Each day they will inflict a galling wound, each hour a stunning blow. Rebuking the friends for the love they bear Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá, they will consider justified their denunciations, their scorn and malice, and spare no effort to do the friends whatever injury it lieth within their power to inflict. Such conduct is at one with the modes and practices of the people aforetime: in bygone centuries, in the days of the appearance of the holy Manifestations, the people acted in just this manner; and now, in these days, it is inevitable that they will repeat such actions, nay, act with greater perversity than before... Hence it is certain that thou wilt be afflicted with adversities, tests and injuries for the sake of the Blessed Beauty; yet these afflictions shall be the purest bounties and bestowals, and a token of thy acceptance at the Divine Threshold." (`Abdu'l-Bahá, from a Tablet — translated from the Persian)

Many such verses that indicate that, no matter how kind we can be, no matter how much we offer the path to peace, that a vast majority will offer ill intent.

"....Stupendous as is the struggle which His words foreshadow, they also testify to the complete victory which the upholders of the Greatest Name are destined eventually to achieve. Peoples, nations, adherents of divers faiths, will jointly and successively arise to shatter its unity, to sap its force, and to degrade its holy name. They will assail not only the spirit which it inculcates, but the administration which is the channel, the instrument, the embodiment of that spirit. For as the authority with which Bahá'u'lláh has invested the future Bahá'í Commonwealth becomes more and more apparent, the fiercer shall be the challenge which from every quarter will be thrown at the verities it enshrines." (In a letter written by Shoghi Effendi, 21 March 1930 to the Bahá'ís of the West, published in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters", pp. 17-18)

There is no doubt all this will unfold.

Yet all we will continue to offer is the Peace and security of all humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not sad CG.

Thus OP is about Baha'allah and his promise for the future, as foretold in Prophecy.

To be part of that, as it is to unfold, Baha'allah has told us what we need to do.

That is what we try to do, while we face what other people choose to do, as the old world order falls apart, we will assist the new world order rolling out in is stead.

Individual Baha'i can make their own choices.

Regards Tony

So, Baha'is wouldn't participate in a peaceful march for racial equality? Yet they are told to go preach it? Baha'is friends of mine did participate in hands across America. Were they going over the line by doing that? They should have stayed home and just talked about peace?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, Baha'is wouldn't participate in a peaceful march for racial equality? Yet they are told to go preach it? Baha'is friends of mine did participate in hands across America. Were they going over the line by doing that? They should have stayed home and just talked about peace?

So CG, you have changed this from participating in civil disobedience, to participating in a peaceful march for racial equality.

I really have no interest to respond to such twists.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

For sure there is a truth. Only if one is unbiased and sincere can realize it. Whatever that truth might be.

Yes, each religion has their truth. Those religions that build off an older religion always have to reinterpret the "truths" from that older one to make their new truth make sense and to work. Like with Christianity, they essentially did away with God's law, because the new truth was that the law didn't and couldn't save a person. What was needed was a perfect sacrifice, Jesus. And now the Baha'is change those "truths" of Christianity and put people back under the new laws of God.

Which actually do make more sense. If God is going to have laws, he should judge each individual by how well they kept the law. Instead of having a get out of hell free card of just believing in Jesus and all is forgiven. But, of course, that's just very general look at what each religion is doing. But I think they do have to make some substantial changes to the previous religion to make things tie in and make sense. But if the Baha'i Faith is right and the truth, then Christianity was way off in left field somewhere. Baha'is have to deny too many things in Christianity to make it worth even trying to make it part of the progression. The resurrection, ascension, the return, Satan and hell, casting out demons, original or inherited sin that made it necessary for Jesus to be sacrificed. Since Baha'is get rid of all that and more, why not just scrap all of Christianity? What of any significance is left?

 

[Sheldon]

OK.



Evidence is a good word you are using.
See, an evidence is not a proof. But it is collective of evidences that can be seen as proof. So, I cannot demonstrate one single evidence as a proof. In my opinion, no body can. It is like a case going to a court. The Judge is you. You need to collect the evidences, and make a Judgement.
But, for me, as a Bahai, I suggest, to investigate Baha'u'llah's claim. This investigation is an individual effort. No nobody can do it for anyone else. Ultimately, if this investigation is done properly, accurately, and sincerely, one can judge if Baha'u'llah's claim is true or false. If He is honest or dishonest. If He is who He says He is, or not. Because He claims to be Manifestation of God. So, we have to ask Bahaullah what evidence do you have that we believe in you? This is a matter of investigation in His writings, historical narratives about Him. Obviously no body can do this investigation for others.
Of course if you ask a Bahai, what did you see from Bahaullah that made you believe in Him, they should have an answer. But, it is beyond the scope of this thread. I wouldn't mind if there was a specific thread for it.

Sorry can you or can you not demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity? Only your criteria for belief was a lack of bias, and studying the "signs", your own words. So this implies there is objective evidence, that's why I asked.

 

[CG Didymus]

So CG, you have changed this from participating in civil disobedience, to participating in a peaceful march for racial equality.

I really have no interest to respond to such twists.

Regards Tony

You don't participate that much anyway. A peace march is a way to show your civil disobedience. Would change in India have happened without Gandhi leading peace marches and sit ins? Same with Martin Luther King Jr. would anything have changed if he didn't lead marches calling for equal rights?

I understand why Baha'is aren't allowed to get involved, because they don't want to go against the government. They want to stay out of the "political" side of it. But that is the old order that you say needs to be rolled up, but Baha'is let it stand? Baha'is let others put their lives on the line standing up to injustices?

Yeah, fine. You have no interest in change until it happens, then what? You're going to move in and say, "Yes, we were talking about equality and putting an end to war all along. So glad all of you opposed the unjust leaders. Now that we're done with them. How would all of you like to join us in rolling out the new world order?" You know most Baha'is do very, very little. Most are just waiting for others to do things. I was with Baha'is on their "mass-teaching" projects. That was 50 years ago. Trying to fulfill the prophecy of "entry by troops". They went to Indian Reservation and minority communities and talked of oneness, peace, and equality. In those 50 years what else has happened? What has changed in those communities and on the Reservations?

Governments and those in power don't change and don't want change. How do you change them? It not peace protests, marches, and other civil disobedience methods, then riots? And when that happens Baha'is will say what? "Oh look... we told you that injustice and prejudices would lead to violence." Great, another "prophecy" come true for Baha'is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't participate that much anyway. A peace march is a way to show your civil disobedience. Would change in India have happened without Gandhi leading peace marches and sit ins? Same with Martin Luther King Jr. would anything have changed if he didn't lead marches calling for equal rights?

I understand why Baha'is aren't allowed to get involved, because they don't want to go against the government. They want to stay out of the "political" side of it. But that is the old order that you say needs to be rolled up, but Baha'is let it stand? Baha'is let others put their lives on the line standing up to injustices?

Yeah, fine. You have no interest in change until it happens, then what? You're going to move in and say, "Yes, we were talking about equality and putting an end to war all along. So glad all of you opposed the unjust leaders. Now that we're done with them. How would all of you like to join us in rolling out the new world order?" You know most Baha'is do very, very little. Most are just waiting for others to do things. I was with Baha'is on their "mass-teaching" projects. That was 50 years ago. Trying to fulfill the prophecy of "entry by troops". They went to Indian Reservation and minority communities and talked of oneness, peace, and equality. In those 50 years what else has happened? What has changed in those communities and on the Reservations?

Governments and those in power don't change and don't want change. How do you change them? It not peace protests, marches, and other civil disobedience methods, then riots? And when that happens Baha'is will say what? "Oh look... we told you that injustice and prejudices would lead to violence." Great, another "prophecy" come true for Baha'is.

All around the world, the Baha'i offer this.

Building vibrant communities - Australian Baha'i Community

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I asked how.

Why? People have been convinced me of things that I was initially strongly biased again. Things against which I had emotional involvement. All it took was adequate evidence and a rational justifiction in support of their claims to sway me. If you have adequate evidence to support your claim, then I will be convinced. If you do not, then I won't. And I shouldn't be.

I think that people use "bias" as a bludgeon to blame others when they cannot sufficiently justify their own positions.

How long has it been? How many posts? Can you proof or show evidence that God is real? Can you prove or show evidence that Baha'u'llah a messenger from God? Not too complicated. But Baha'is find ways to make it complicated. "God is invisible and unknowable. The only way we can know about God is through his messengers. But don't go by what is written in the Scriptures of the older religions... That's messed up. Listen to what Baha'u'llah said about God."

Then the question, "Why should we listen to him?"

"Because he's a messenger from God."

And they keep finding new ways to say the same thing. Like now, what are we supposed to say, "Yes, the old-world order is falling apart, therefore he must be a prophet of God!"

 

[CG Didymus]

The lesser peace is built after the calamities CG.

I have no idea how long we will go through these waves of.calamity.

One has to read what both Abdul'baha a d Shoghi Effendi offered. These are available in the Baha'i Library.

Regards Tony

Is there a way to stop the calamities? I don't think there is. I think that is part of what the Baha'is are prophesying, that the world is not going to accept Baha'u'llah until after the calamities... which sounds like Baha'is are saying will include some cities getting nuked.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry can you or can you not demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity? Only your criteria for belief was a lack of bias, and studying the "signs", your own words. So this implies there is objective evidence, that's why I asked.

There are objective evidences.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you've got your own interpretation of different religion. Cool. I'm not convinced.

Yeah, what's left of Christianity after Baha'is have dealt with it? Jesus could have certainly made it simpler for himself and all of us... "Hey, you got a higher self and a lower material self. Follow the higher self."

 

[CG Didymus]

If looking at it that way, even before Jesus there were unities among groups. A family and marriage is a form of unity. Even today, there is unity among ISIS. There is unity among Russians and BlaRus.

But are we talking about any kind of unity?
I was talking about unity among all Christians. They became divided. And some fought with other Christians.
Baha'u'llah created a way, that all Bahais are in unity. I mean they are not sects or denominations. This is the very first time in history that a Religion was not divided into sects.

But there are sects. So far, they haven't amounted to much. I looked it up. Can you explain what all this is about...?

In his lifetime Mirza Ali Mohammed had appointed Mirza Yahya, the son of Mirza Buzurg, and the stepbrother of Mirza Husain Ali as his successor. The same Mirza Husain Ali later came to be known as "Bahá'u'lláh."

Mirza Ali Mohammed Shirazi (The Bab) had given Mirza Yahya the title of "Subhe' Azal" (Everlasting Dawn). He also gave his ring, his personal effects and also the authority to explain and comment on his (Mirza Ali Mohammed Bab's) writings.

While in exile in constantinopole where Bahá'u'lláh stayed for 4 years and it was from there that he announced that he was the real and true successor of Mirza Ali Mohammed Bab (And not his step brother Mirza Yahya Subh-e-Azal) and also that Allah, the Most High, had given him a more honored and lofty position than his predecessor.

Despite Mirza Ali Mohammed's clear announcement of the appointment of Mirza Yahya as his successor, a few others also rose up with claims of successorship after his death. Amongst them was a Bahá'í from Tabriz, Mirza Abdullah, who was thrown in the Arabian rivers by some Bahá'ís on the orders of Mirza Husain Ali. Likewise an Indian Bahá'í, Aga Bashir Mohammed had also forwarded his claim but he did not receive any response.

Subh-e-Azal along with most of the 18 special companions of Mirza Ali Mohammed Bab severely opposed this claim of Mirza Husain Ali and came to Constantinople to bring back Mirza Husain Ali to the right path. Thus a severe discord broke out amongst the Bahá'ís themselves and they began to kill each other openly. Finally, Mirza Yahya went into a recluse and Mirza Husain Ali became the sovereign leader of Bahá'ís.

In view of such serious circumstances, the Ottoman government intervened and sent Subh-e-Azal along with his family to Cyprus and Mirza Husain Ali with his family to Palestine. The Bahá'ís thus got divided into two distinct groups, the followers of Subh-e-Azal came to be known as "Azalis" (The Bayanis) and the followers of Mirza Husain Ali became famous as "Bahá'ís."​