Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[KWED]

The tree planted was from the tree of life CG. It was planted in the pure soil of Love, faith and obediance in God and the tree of Christ flourished CG.

On the way, not every branch of understanding will survive, some will be cut off as they are diseased, some are pruned as they no longer bare fruit, all the while tendered by the gardne. Eventually a tree will die and even when the tree is about to die, it will still give a crop, though it may be diminished.

What you talk about with doctrine all ties back into the fruit of the tree. In the end, no one will eat the sour fruit, when a new tree is planted and they taste of the new sweet fruit.

All those trees all come from the tree of life CG.

Genesis 2:9 "The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."

Regards Tony

Your constant platitudes rarely address the questions asked or points raised.
The evidence completely refutes your claim that all religions are good and true representations of god's message, revealed by messengers of the same god, communicating the same message.
Bahaism necessarily implies that other religions are wrong.
So, how do you reconcile these inconsistencies?

 

[KWED]

I have no problem with any of the things you are having problem.
The account of Noah was in Bible. It is in Bible and Quran that Noah lived 950, and Baha'u'llah was telling the religion stories as recorded in the older scriptures, which of course in Bahai view are not to be taken literally. Ismail vs Isaq is also related to differences in Bible and Islamic traditions. It is not like Baha'u'llah have said that. He says both Bible and Islamic traditions are true, each son is accepted to be sacrificed. So, no Baha'u'llah did not say Bible is wrong.
I don't have problem with accepting that God's Books are not straightforward at all. They are very difficult books, and are meant to test us. This is believable to me. It may not be believable to some others.

Why would god say Noah lived for 950 tears if he didn't? He obviously knew that many people would assume it was true, because it was revealed by god who does magic and is infallible and knows everything.
Why would he say that all humanity spoke the same language until 5000 years ago if he didn't mean it? We know it's wrong, yet Bahaullah repeated this mistake.How do you explain that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I asked you what practical steps can be taken. I didn't ask for a link to a long essay.

What, specifically, does the Baha't religion propose doing that secular liberal democracies are not already doing or proposing.

The first thing is, that secular liberalisim does not have the capacity to find unity.

The peace and security of mankind, its ultimate unity is not possible, unless and until the governments base their decisions on the councils given by God.

This will still take some considerable time for humanity to embrace, so until then the link provided was the answer to your question.

Meanwhile this needs to be implemented, thus any actions taken to promote this advice, are practical steps.

"..The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'i believe the Mormon claims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Mormons have none.
The Mormon believes the Baha'i aims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Baha'i have none.
I consider both to be nonsense because there is no evidence to support either of their extraordinary claims. Both rely of belief
Which is the more reasonable of those three positions?

The one where a personal independent search has been undertaken and objective decisions have been made upon sound factual evidence using logic and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would god say Noah lived for 950 tears if he didn't? He obviously knew that many people would assume it was true, because it was revealed by god who does magic and is infallible and knows everything.
Why would he say that all humanity spoke the same language until 5000 years ago if he didn't mean it? We know it's wrong, yet Bahaullah repeated this mistake.How do you explain that?

The stories are symbolic, and one reason is, this way, these stories can last among generations for centuries or more. Symbolically stories last generations and centuries, as beliefs among people.
But now, that we came to a new age, humanity has a better capacity to understand. Thus, now in Revelation of Baha'u'llah the secrets and hidden meanings of symbolic stories in past scriptures revealed.
These periods of time have a meaning, other than their apparent meaning. 950 years is not literally, how long Noah lived, but is the duration that His covenant lasted. After that, Abraham brought a new covenant. So, 950 years life of Noah can be a metaphor to mean, life or length of His covenant.
Each Messenger, brought a new covenant prescribed for a period of time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So how did the first messenger know that it was actually god rather than just a voce in their head? as you point out, without previous messengers, that person could know it was god.

God makes them aware, but also gives them the choice to deliver the Message.

So ordinary can't recognise and verify a god, but they can recognise and verify a messenger. Doesn't sound very likely, does it?

The Messenger is all we can know and verify about God. Every ordinary person has been created with the potential to recognise and embrace that Spirit. The New Testament tells us, that is to be born again, born from the flesh to the Spirit.

Science can confirm that material creation is founded on that Spirit, that is the Essence of the Messenger.

But many knowledgable, learned, capable people dismiss the "message" as nonsense, while others manage to recognise it as children when told about it by their parents. How do you explain that?

Spiritual capacity is detachment from this material world. Detachment does not mean non participation in all the good this world has to offer, it is finding the Spirit within us, and not allowing the influence of this world to darken our capacity of Virtues and Morality.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So every word of every religious scripture is true?

Short answer is every word that proceeded from the mouth of a Messenger is true.

As to the records, the Baha'i Writings and the Quran are confirmed as an accurate record of the Messages given.

the Bible contains the Word of God and is a sure spiritual guide, but not a word for word accurate account.

The remainder of the Scriptures vary greatly as to accuracy. We are told to look for the light that is of God in them all. The light of God falls upon every human, so if something is found that excludes, it is most likely not of God. (Note* Laws to have exclusions)

So basically, whatever ideology takes your fancy, it is true and you should follow it.

One should be cautious, one should do a thorough independent search using sound logic and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you are claiming that religious belief will only thrive if true and good. So Christianity is the truest and goodest belief, followed by Islam, Hinduism, Sikhs, etc - with Bahaism somewhere near the bottom of the Trueness and Goodness league table.

I will leave that for you to sort out. The answer should be an individuals own effort.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is highly disingenuous to claim that Bahaism considers every religious belief to be true and accurate. You actually claim that the others have flaws and only Bahaism offers the actual solution. It is no different to the others in that respect.

That is another aspect of faith that needs to be confirmed by an individuals own search.

One cannot see how a person of any faith sees, unless one sees that faith for their own self.

What Baha'u'llah offered is that all Faith has the same source, as there is only One God.

The rest is up to us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaism necessarily implies that other religions are wrong.

So, how do you reconcile these inconsistencies

I do not need to, as your statement that "Bahaism necessarily implies that other religions are wrong" is not an accurate portrayal of what Baha'u'llah offered, this is but one quote.

"...There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you. This, verily, is the most exalted Word which the Mother Book hath sent down and revealed unto you. To this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur from His habitation of glory....."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 217-218

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

Atheists don’t expect Gods to do anything? I do not think that is true. They expect God to do lots of things, if God exists.
Matt Dillahunty expects God to convince him that He exists.
From Matt Dillahunty:
"If there is a god, that god should know exactly what it would take to change my mind...and that god should be capable of doing whatever it would take.

This issue is absolutely fundamental and you really need to try and grasp it.
When atheists do this, they are not saying that god exists but they won't believe in him until he proves himself. They are not demanding that an actual god does something
They are saying IF a god existed in the way described the the person they are arguing with, then that god should be able to do certain things. The fact that it doesn't (in the imaginary world of the believer) highlights a flaw in the other person's argument.

It is a very simple and straightforward concept. A rhetorical device used to illustrate a point.

Think of it like this.
I claim that my magic, invisible unicorn poops radioactive diamonds the size of acorns.
If you challenge me to produce any such diamonds, it doesn't mean that you believe my unicorn exists but doubt its ability to poop glowing rocks. It is merely using my claim against itself.

 

[ppp]

We don't have that many cases in history, that 20,000 die for their belief willingly in a Person who claim to be a Messenger of God.
Doesn't that tell you, the matter needs to be investigated more accurately?

We don't have that many cases in history, that 20,000 die for their belief willingly in a Person who claim to be a Messenger of God.

We have had hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people willing to die for their unsubstantiated beliefs.

Doesn't that tell you, the matter needs to be investigated more accurately?

No. Adding a person who claims to be a messenger of a god to your sentence did not put it in a special category. It tells me a lot of people will die for what they believe to be true. And that people will die for things that cannot be demonstrated to be true.

 

[KWED]

That is another aspect of faith that needs to be confirmed by an individuals own search.

So there is no "one truth", god or whatever. Different people have their own truth and god, depending on what they look at and how they look at it.
Given that you admit that there is no objective means to determine which beliefs are right or wrong, then your claim that Bahaism offers the only true solution is clearly false. At best it merely offers one option.

One cannot see how a person of any faith sees, unless one sees that faith for their own self.

It is also apparent that many people of faith have trouble explaining how they see their own faith in consistent terms.

What Baha'u'llah offered is that all Faith has the same source, as there is only One God.

But as you have just said, you have no way of knowing if he was right. The evidence certainly suggest he was wrong, so it is merely faith that you are relying on - the same as every other religionist making the same kind of claim.
As the saying goes, you can't all be right, but you can all be wrong.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We have had hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people willing to die for their unsubstantiated beliefs.

Oh, dear. Again you are just saying something with no proof.
It is like I say, we have millions of planet, for sure in some of them there are unicorns.
We are not talking about opinions here. We talk based on historical facts.
There is difference between claim and facts. The fact is, 20000 of early believes actually were killed. Show me, where else that actually happend.

No. Adding a person who claims to be a messenger of a god to your sentence did not put it in a special category. It tells me a lot of people will die for what they believe to be true. And that people will die for things that cannot be demonstrated to be true.

Again you think because you do not believe in Bahai Faith, those who believed and died for it, were without a logical reason. It tells me, you consider your opinions as facts my friend. No, they are just your view. And the fact is, you have not spent much time investigating the matter.
So, you could be right or wrong in your conclusion. The problem I have with this, is not that, you do not believe. That is your choice, but rather too quick in Judgement. No, it takes more than this to know for sure.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me, the world seems more and more divided.
These articles point to a rearrangement of priorities within countries perhaps, but not to one of unity.

So far the world seems very divided but the world is becoming more united.
I believe the world will unite eventually, but it will take a long time, as it did not get divided overnight.

 

[KWED]

@KWED,You are treating the case of Bahaullah as if, all those Scholars who believed Baha'u'llah were naive and fools, or they did not have any good reason to believe.
Are you aware that, how many people in Persia gave their life due to their belief in Baha'u'llah. More than 20,000 early belivers were martyred. I don't blame you for not knowing much about the Bahai faith, because you are new to this.

Ok. So you claim that anyone who has followers who believe in them and will die for them are necessarily right and true.
Are you sure about that?

When we talk about proofs, it is not like we always have to have the answers at hand. Many times historical narratives are constructed through logical deductions, based on clues or evidences.

Indeed. And the logical deduction based on the evidence is that Bahaullah gained his knowledge through reading and being told about it rather than by magic - not least because if you want to claim magic you first need to show that magic exists.

To come to some conclusions, through logical deductions, let's try answering a series of questions, and then we see what can be concluded from them.
So, first question:

1. Baha'u'llah first claimed that He is a Manifestation of God in the year 1863 At that time He was 46 years old.

If you think He was learning stuff on His own prior to this date secretly, to plan for a future calim of Prophethood, how long prior to this year (1863) He was planning it secretly? How long before His claim He was secretly learning things, so He could later claim He knows things without learning?
Please answer this question based on evidences or at least a reasonable answer.

I haven't claimed that he was secretly planning to be a false prophet. I have made no claims about his plans or motives. My sole point is that given the evidence it is reasonable to assume that his knowledge came through non-magical means. Also remember that you still haven't produced any evidence or rational argument to show that he was an illiterate ignoramus who never read a book or had a discussion for decades, despite his privileged background. Further remember that all the "evidence" you produce are hagiographical anecdotes from followers who have a vested interest in promoting the idea of magic powers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But as you have just said, you have no way of knowing if he was right. The evidence certainly suggest he was wrong, so it is merely faith that you are relying on - the same as every other religionist making the same kind of claim.
As the saying goes, you can't all be right, but you can all be wrong.

I see in your replies there is no interest in God, but to debate there is no God.

Is that a fair assumption?

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

Oh dear. You read the posts from early to later. If you read my later post, I have already replied to this.

But you do have a lot of pre-judgement, which comes through your debates with other non-Bahai religions. You think, the Bahais will tell you I don't know the mind of God? When did I say that?
The Baha'i scriptures sums up to 200 times volumes of the Bible. Anything you ask we can find a quote from Baha'i scriptures. Don't you think 200 times Bible, volume of scriptures have covered any possible question you can have?

OK. So what is the necessary reason for god creating a world full of the suffering of innocents?
(Note: saying "I have dealt with this elsewhere" is not an acceptable answer. There are thousands of posts on these threads. I am not trawling through them all when you can simply say what you think. )

 

[KWED]

I see in your replies there is no interest in God, but to debate there is no God.
Is that a fair assumption?

Not sure what your point is there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why does god require so many people to suffer needlessly?

I don't really know. Only God knows the answer to that question.

I haven't suffered. I have had a pretty easy and privileged life.

You are one of the lucky ones. Do you ever wonder why some people are like you while others suffer most of their lives? I do.

I have suffered most of my life and it was because of the hand I was dealt. I could blame God and I did for many years, but after the suffering let up I realized the value of that suffering.

In spite of the hand I was dealt I was able to procure several college degrees and I always had good employment. I made good investments so I am very well off now and have more money than I will ever be able to spend, but my life continues to be difficult because of circumstances that are beyond my control and not likely to change. Such is fate. I just try to accept it and I try to help others rather than thinking about my life situation.