Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok. So you claim that anyone who has followers who believe in them and will die for them are necessarily right and true.
Are you sure about that?

Oh dear. Why do I have to keep saying Oh dear to you guys. Lollll
Incorrect conclusion from what I said.
1. It means, they sincerely believed it to be true.
2. It means there could be good reasons they believed it so strongly that they died for it. (So, the Bab and Baha'u'llah had enough to convince them).

Therefore, it would be wise to look into that more carefully before making a conclusion.

I haven't claimed that he was secretly planning to be a false prophet. I have made no claims about his plans or motives.

Then answer this question:

Then If He wasn't secretly preparing for His claim, why then there is no recorded history that He was reading or learning religious stuff or studying, prior to His claim?
How come in case of Joseph Smith, Ahmad Qadiani, or other people living at the time of Baha'u'llah, there are recorded history about what they have been studying, when and where, but in case of Baha'u'llah, despite there are many historic accounts on His life, no one ever mentioned He was reading and studying?
You must have a reasonable answer for this then..

My sole point is that given the evidence it is reasonable to assume that his knowledge came through non-magical means. Also remember that you still haven't produced any evidence or rational argument to show that he was an illiterate ignoramus who never read a book or had a discussion for decades, despite his privileged background. Further remember that all the "evidence" you produce are hagiographical anecdotes from followers who have a vested interest in promoting the idea of magic powers.

Your conclusion is not reasonable, but rather it is what can be imagined to be most possible, because normally people have to learn things to know them.
You can claim reasonable when you have a reasonable answer to all valid questions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not sure what your point is there.

The point is, that it is but a pure and simple waste of time for both of us and all who unfortunately choose to read the OP.

The answer to the OP is simple, it would be a simple No, as there is no God that foretells us of the future.

Is that a fair summary?

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

We don't have that many cases in history, that 20,000 die for their belief willingly in a Person who claim to be a Messenger of God.
Doesn't that tell you, the matter needs to be investigated more accurately?

History is full of massacres, pogroms, persecutions, genocides, etc of large numbers of people because of their faith - often in far larger numbers that the Baha'i. The very idea that the limited persecution of a few Baha'i in the 19th century sets them apart form other, far worse events show that you have not been "investigating" this with any sense of objectivity or honesty, and refutes any claim that you have been.

 

[KWED]

Oh dear. This is a prerequisite condition. Not only this.
The point is, each person needs to investigate the matter independently, and without getting influenced by what others say. Because very often, people think, just because a great number of people say something, then it is a True information.

But you are that if they do this, whatever their conclusion must be right and true.

Anyway, your bizarre claim about Baha'i martyrs shows that you have not "independently investigated" this at all but merely sought out confirmation. As I suspected.

 

[KWED]

Obviously, you have not learned about Bahai Faith.
Bahai faith does not say other Religions are false. It says, each religion was revealed for a period of time. Each religion have a prescribed period, during which, its Laws are useful. Once that period is passed, God again sends a new Law, suitable for a new period of time. So, Bahai Faith is not also a final religion. In future other Manifestations appear and bring a better Religon for future times.

One of the problems here is that different Baha'i on here have different positions on what their faith says and means, sometimes changing depending on what points they are addressing.

Now, you appear to be saying that Bahaullah's writings are merely transitory and the next messenger could say something quite different, and that Baha'ism could be quite meaningless in the ultimate salvation of humanity - which raises the question, what is even the point in it?

 

[Trailblazer]

This issue is absolutely fundamental and you really need to try and grasp it.
When atheists do this, they are not saying that god exists but they won't believe in him until he proves himself. They are not demanding that an actual god does something.

That is exactly what they are saying, that they won't believe in him until he proves himself to them.

They are saying IF a god existed in the way described by the person they are arguing with, then that god should be able to do certain things. The fact that it doesn't (in the imaginary world of the believer) highlights a flaw in the other person's argument.

They are saying IF a god existed in the way described by the person they are arguing with, then that god should be able to do certain things - and these things are exactly what they expect the God to do. So essentially they are telling God what God should do or else they are not going to believe God exists.

 

[KWED]

The first thing is, that secular liberalisim does not have the capacity to find unity.

Of course it does. Look at the secular liberal democracies today. They are stable, socially conscious, and rank highest in terms of health, welfare, security, happiness, etc.

The peace and security of mankind, its ultimate unity is not possible, unless and until the governments base their decisions on the councils given by God.

And yet when governments do this they tend to be more authoritarian, oppressive, divisive, etc.
Your argument goes against the evidence we see.

This will still take some considerable time for humanity to embrace, so until then the link provided was the answer to your question.

But you need to realise it will never happen. It is a pipe dream of the highest order.

Meanwhile this needs to be implemented, thus any actions taken to promote this advice, are practical steps.

"..The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

That is merely more hippy platitudes. Everyone would like the idea of a "universal peace" it is nothing new or remarkable. However, it simply won't happen because the vast majority of people reject your god and the claims made about him.
Which brings us back to the elephant in the room...
God can create conditions whereby everyone will see, understand and accept his wonderful plan. So why doesn't he?

Forget everything else and just answer that one question - without resorting to meaningless platitudes (joking, I know you can't do it).
God can create conditions whereby everyone will see, understand and accept his wonderful plan and his goal will be realised. So why doesn't he?

 

[ppp]

Oh, dear. Again you are just saying something with no proof.
It is like I say, we have millions of planet, for sure in some of them there are unicorns.
We are not talking about opinions here. We talk based on historical facts.
There is difference between claim and facts. The fact is, 20000 of early believes actually were killed. Show me, where else that actually happend.

It is not my fault that you are unaware of history. Albigensian Crusade. Circassian genocide. The Jews in almost every country in Europe from 325 through 1945. The inquisition. The wars of religion. Falun Gong. All the massacres in the OT (if the bible is to be believed. State sanctioned murder of Christians in the early Roman empire. Fez pogrom. Massacre of the Latins. The Sacking of Jerusalem. And many many more.
Why don't you know any of these? Why? Why?!

It breaks my heart.

Again you think because you do not believe in Bahai Faith, those who believed and died for it, were without a logical reason. It tells me, you consider your opinions as facts my friend. No, they are just your view. And the fact is, you have not spent much time investigating the matter.
So, you could be right or wrong in your conclusion. The problem I have with this, is not that, you do not believe. That is your choice, but rather too quick in Judgement. No, it takes more than this to know for sure.

No, that is not why I think they were without a logical reason. I will thank you to quit trying to stuff your own prejudices down my throat; and then try to take me to task for your prepacked preconceptions. I am a human being. Not a character in a scripted play.

 

[KWED]

The one where a personal independent search has been undertaken and objective decisions have been made upon sound factual evidence using logic and reason.

Regards Tony

This is where you get yourself tangled up.
Both the Baha'i and the Mormon (and every other religionist) will claim to have done that, so it gets you nowhere. However, the reality is none of you have actually done that. You are all working under confirmation bias.
As I said you can't all be right (which is what you are claiming), but you can all be wrong.
It is no coincidence that the "objective, logical, factual evidence" unearthed by a religionist for their own faith is only convincing to others of their own faith. Why do you think that is?
It is also no coincidence that anyone who understands what "evidence", "objective" and "logic" actually are, rejects all those claims, because they are all equally and similarly flawed.

 

[CG Didymus]

as Baha'u'llah says, nobody was really sacrificed. In old Testament, this station of sacrifice was given to Isaac, (because Moses came from lineage of Isaac)
In Islam this station of sacrifice is given to Ismael, (because Muhammad was from lineage of Ismael.)

I had never heard of this thing called "station" until I heard Baha'is use it. But it's too complicated for me. A much simpler explanation is the Israelites wrote all these stories after the fact based on legends, myths, traditions, whatever. There doesn't have to be any "station". It's a story about Abraham trusting in his God. He was promised a son through his wife Sarah, but she was beyond childbearing years. So, what does Abraham do? He does the maid, and she has a son, Ishmael. Then the miracle happens, Sarah has a son, Isaac. But the son of the maid makes fun of Isaac, so Sarah has Abraham fire the maid and send her and her son away.

The Ishmael is gone when God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. But God stops Abraham from carrying it through. So, it was nothing but a big test. What's stupid is that Abraham really thought that a true and real God would even ask such a thing. But that's what the story says. Hopefully, the whole thing is just myth and legend and not real. But the Bible story continues with Isaac having Jacob. Then, like I already said, Jacob has his named changed by God to Israel and he has a bunch of kids that become the tribes of Israel and end up in slavery in Egypt. Ishmael is a minor character in the story. And again, it's probably all fictional. Why do the Baha'is need to change a fictional story?

 

[KWED]

The stories are symbolic, and one reason is, this way, these stories can last among generations for centuries or more. Symbolically stories last generations and centuries, as beliefs among people.
But now, that we came to a new age, humanity has a better capacity to understand. Thus, now in Revelation of Baha'u'llah the secrets and hidden meanings of symbolic stories in past scriptures revealed.
These periods of time have a meaning, other than their apparent meaning. 950 years is not literally, how long Noah lived, but is the duration that His covenant lasted. After that, Abraham brought a new covenant. So, 950 years life of Noah can be a metaphor to mean, life or length of His covenant.
Each Messenger, brought a new covenant prescribed for a period of time.

If that was the meaning, then why not say that, because the way it is described is very specifically that Noah lived to be 950.
So basically you are claiming that messengers didn't really understand the message or how to convey it. So we should trust Bahaullah's writings to mean what you think they might mean.

So, for example, when Bahaullah claims that all humans spoke the same language until 5000 years ago, what did he actually mean, because we know he was wrong.

 

[KWED]

God makes them aware, but also gives them the choice to deliver the Message.

You claimed that we can't be aware of god without a messenger.
Now you are saying that we don't need a messenger to be aware of god.
I'm detecting a pattern here.

The Messenger is all we can know and verify about God.

Right. So how did the first messenger know and verify god without a messenger?
You seem to be stuck in a circular reasoning loop here.

Science can confirm that material creation is founded on that Spirit, that is the Essence of the Messenger.

Science does no such thing. In fact the opposite.
Science suggests that our consciousness (or "spirit") is a product of the physical brain.
Do you really think that scientifically literate people will believe such nonsensical claims? Remember you are not talking just to other Baha'is here.

 

[CG Didymus]

Except in Bahai view, human soul lives on after death of body, unlike animals soul, which does not progress any farther.

Great, animals live and die and are done with. Their lives aren't all that important to God. But people... they are special. They have a body and a brain that gets their eternal part, their soul, into all sorts of trouble for its existence in the next, spiritual, world.

The body has needs and the brain figures, "What the heck? Let me go do all sorts of things that religions say is bad. What's it going to hurt?" Then the brain and body dies and the soul goes on to the spirit world and gets put in a place far from God all because the body it was assigned to liked to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, and kill. Or, did the soul have control over the brain and body? And some souls give in to the desires of the flesh?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi. I remember We already discussed that, we cannot be sure, letters on behalf of Guardian are his exact words.
Baha'u'llah wrote, that, in Bible the station of sacrifice was given to Isaac, and in Islam, that station was given to Ismael.


"Although the secretaries of the Guardian convey his thoughts and instructions and these messages are authoritative, their words are in no sense the same as his, their style certainly not the same, and their authority less, for they use their own terms and not his exact words in conveying his messages."
(25 February 1951 to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British Isles)

So, they might not be accurate? But if Shoghi gave his opinion and wrote it down it was the infallible truth? Or only his interpretations were infallible but not his opinions?

 

[KWED]

Short answer is every word that proceeded from the mouth of a Messenger is true.

As to the records, the Baha'i Writings and the Quran are confirmed as an accurate record of the Messages given.

the Bible contains the Word of God and is a sure spiritual guide, but not a word for word accurate account.

The remainder of the Scriptures vary greatly as to accuracy. We are told to look for the light that is of God in them all. The light of God falls upon every human, so if something is found that excludes, it is most likely not of God. (Note* Laws to have exclusions)

So basically, Baha'ism and Islam are true. Christianity might be a bit true, but the rest are wrong to greater or lesser degree.
So the claim that Bahaism does not call other religions wrong is just sophistry.

One should be cautious, one should do a thorough independent search using sound logic and reason.

But if the person doing the searching believes they have been thorough, independent, logical and reasonable, then they are necessarily right? Yes or no?

 

[KWED]

I will leave that for you to sort out. The answer should be an individuals own effort.

I am asking you to confirm your claims. Surely you have done "thorough, independent, sound, logical research"? What did it show you?

 

[KWED]

That is another aspect of faith that needs to be confirmed by an individuals own search.

One cannot see how a person of any faith sees, unless one sees that faith for their own self.

What Baha'u'llah offered is that all Faith has the same source, as there is only One God.

The rest is up to us.

Regards Tony

Now you appear to be disowning your own arguments.
I though you had absolute faith in the truth of Bahaism as the final salvation for all humanity.
Now you are like "Meh, whatever, I could be wrong".

 

[CG Didymus]

He's also wasting your time.

I don't see how his response was a waste of anybody's time. Why the extreme amount of pain and suffering in this world is a huge problem that needs to be explained by any religion that claims they have the truth. And, if the Baha'is are correct, we know that what most Christians believe to be the cause is wrong.

Circular reasoning. It assumes that God is omniscient to show that we can't disagree with God's decisions because he is omniscient.

 

[CG Didymus]

If someone has detailed, specialist medical knowledge, the assumption is that they acquired it through lessons or reading. If they said to you that they hadn't, and that god have magically planted the knowledge in their brain, would you simply believe them? Of course not. You would require some convincing evidence to support their claim. If they could only repeat their claim, you would dismiss it and nonsense.

One of his claims is that he is the "great" physician that has the remedy the world needs. We can read what that remedy is. In any of the things that Baha'u'llah has written, do you see evidence of him being this "great" physician? Disarm, elect a world tribunal, follow God's laws and all this will lead to peace and harmony. Does the things he says sound like they will work? And are from God?

 

[KWED]

I don't really know. Only God knows the answer to that question.

Usual cop-out.
This is your firm, absolute belief that you are completely convinced about.
Yet "I don't know" is all you have to one of the fundamental problems with it?
Come on!

Do you ever wonder why some people are like you while others suffer most of their lives?

Because god likes me more than the others. He has certainly blessed me with his bounteous grace and mercy.

I have suffered most of my life and it was because of the hand I was dealt. I could blame God and I did for many years, but after the suffering let up I realized the value of that suffering.

Look, god has his favourites, like all parents. Don't sweat it. Might not even be your fault.

I have more money than I will ever be able to spend,

Only people who don't have much money say that, because they have aspirational dreams of how much they would need to have everything they want. Those who really are very wealthy understand just how easy it is to get through enormous sums pretty quickly.