Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[TransmutingSoul]

So we must't rely on god for guidance, we must rely on god to guide us to a new method of guidance?
This whole subject is becoming more and more circular and incoherent.

Yes, no man can be relied upon. A Messenger is not a man like us, that is the Messengers proof. A good proof of that is the billions that follow Jesus and Muhammad. The greatest rulers of earth have never had such followings, so what made Jesus and Muhammad stand out as true Kings, that is what people need to consider. It is now the same with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

False prophets do not stand on their own message, they piggyback of another.

Baha'u'llah has said, ".....My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 286-287

Thus I do not need to prove God or Baha'u'llah to anyone, they can take one look at the world affairs and ask themselves if humanity needs unity and cooperation without fear of tyrants, gangsters and money hungry individuals selling naught but the destruction of humanity.

If people see unity is a worthy goal, then they have to consider how that change can be achieved.

So if unity can only be obtained by listening to what God offered, how will a athiest mindset embrace those councils? It may be possible, but I fear not.

We have posted many passages of what we have to do to unite humanity, yet because it is offered it is from God, through Baha'u'llah, those councils are yet to be considered by the vast majority of the world. In fact they are outright rejected and the intent often twisted. I see many replies that take what is said and purposely put a reply that starts " So you are saying...."followed by a false and deceptive summary".

It is circular because the Proof God has given us is everything.

"Every created thing in the whole universe is but a door leading into His knowledge, a sign of His sovereignty, a revelation of His names, a symbol of His majesty, a token of His power, a means of admittance into His straight Path."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 160

If we do not look for God in anything we can not find God, if we look for God, we will find God in everything and the source of all that light, is the Messengers. That is why they are the best proof.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

So what do you mean by mocking? Is any criticism of your religion or your founder considered to be mockery? If I say that the Baha'i position on marriage equality is deplorable and indefensible, am I mocking?

As long the intention is to hurt someones belief, it is mocking, if it is asked "can you explain this from your religious belief" then accept the answer, it is not mocking

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But it isn't a "New World Order" if it is only followed by a few million Baha'i. It is just another sizeable cult.

The prophecy offers that that World Order is now a very distant future. What is needed is the Lesser Peace, so I will quote it again, what needs to happen.

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …"

This is not the Baha'is doing this. There are also many more passages on this topic about the "Lesser Peace".

As Baha'is, while all this unfolds, We will continue to build a New World order at community levels. Build the foundations of Virtues and Morals in service to each other, that will eventually pave way to a better future for all humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

As long the intention is to hurt someones belief, it is mocking, if it is asked "can you explain this from your religious belief" then accept the answer, it is not mocking

Ah. Then you are pretty much doomed to disappointment. Religious belief is not a special category of belief that is exempt from critical scrutiny. One does not get a pass on racist, sexist or classist views just because those views are tied to one's religion. If that were the case then we would never have had abolition, or suffrage, or civil rights, or marriage equality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe not in the verses you quoted, but we already know Jesus said, the Days of Son of Man, is like the Days of Noah. He also said, even those who made holes in His body shall be there. It means, same cruel people will be there.

The claim is he fulfilled all the prophecies. So, since he came and went without establishing a peaceful, united world, that is living under God's laws, then what prophesies in any religion support that? That support the end times promised one will be rejected and imprisoned then die and the world will go through several world wars, plagues and disasters for having rejected him?

 

[Spirit of Light]

The claim is he fulfilled all the prophecies. So, since he came and went without establishing a peaceful, united world, that is living under God's laws, then what prophesies in any religion support that? That support the end times promised one will be rejected and imprisoned then die and the world will go through several world wars, plagues and disasters for having rejected him?

If someone from a religious faith harming others, they are not practicing correctly love and compassion.

 

[KWED]

No! That's not what I intended to say.
The stories in Bible as they are in Bible were revealed by God (in Bahai view).
But it is not like God only speaks literally. God revealed symbolic stories. Not literal history. But some of these stories, were misunderstood by many people. because they took everything literally true. These stories have an inner meaning.
For example according to scriptures, it is said at the End Time, the Dead will be resurrected. Most people understood this, to mean a physical resurrection. But, Bahai scriptures tells us, Resurrection of the Dead, is a metaphor, meaning awakening spiritually. So, that Day has, come, and it was an allusion to Baha'u'llah's revelation. As even the time of it was prophesied in the Bible. Bahai scriptures tells us, where in Bible the time of Manifestation of the Bab and Baha'u'llah was mentioned, and we now can see!

Moreover, When Bahais say Bible could have inaccuracies, we don't mean in a sense that it is illegitimate or has any false teachings at all. We just mean, some words may not be exactly the exact word that came out of mouth of Jesus, possibly because of errors in copying scriptures or unintentional mistakes of scribes. But not to the level that would make the Bible's illegitimate or unreliable, or make any difference.

You keep vaccinating between conflicting positions.
You now claim that the Bible doesn't accurately represent what Jesus said, but it is still true. You claim that many Christians believe false claims about god's message, but it is still true.
You claim that for centuries, Christians were misinterpreting the Bible, but they weren't wrong.
It's all over the place.
(This is where you say "But that's not what I meant!", and provide some more conflicting or contradictory claims).

I don't know how you concluded this. But that is not a Bahai view.

It is implied by what you have said. I get the feeling that sometimes you don't fully understand the implications of your statements. They appear to be mere reactive contradictions to points and criticisms rather than thought-through, considered arguments.

What reference from Bahai writings are you looking for? I didn't understand.

Whuh?
You asked me for the reference where Bahaullah claimed that all humans used to have a common language a few thousand years ago, but god introduced different languages as a punishment. (I was repeating a claim made by a Baha'i on here. I thought that as you have fully, soundly, independently and logically researched Bahaullah's claims, you would have come across such an glaringly false one)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I respectfully disagree. I am interested in finding the strengths of other views, and the weaknesses in my own with regards to a description of reality, and paths to my goals. In my experience, that is best discovered through an honest dialectic that is a blend of cooperation and completion.

If you just want to describe, then why are you in an open debate forum. As opposed to one of the protected forums?

No problem. I am not saying I only get to describe. In debate everyone gets to describe their side or views. I am not even saying just because I am a Bahai I definitely know everything about it, more then non-Bahais. So, I am OK, with others describe Bahai history, or teachings, or anything else, but as long as we describe them based on facts and info.

 

[CG Didymus]

@KWED does it bother you so much that bahai's believe what they do that you cant just accept they believe different than you?

At what moment will you start backing off?
If you want people to respect your own values in life, maybe time you accept people are different?

Just curious..

There was a time when religions could enforce their rules and beliefs on people. Those that disobeyed, disagreed or in any way challenged the laws and beliefs were sometimes even killed. I believe the ultimate goal of the Baha'i Faith is to rule the world. If it's true, then swell. Let's all join in and live in peace and love and follow the Baha'i laws that came from God himself. But... what if it's not true? And how would we know? We got to ask the tough questions. And, unfortunately, there are very good answers coming from the Baha'is. So, that kind of makes me suspicious.

 

[KWED]

@KWED does it bother you so much that bahai's believe what they do that you cant just accept they believe different than you?

*sigh* I should have this on speed dial...
This is a public, open, religious debate forum. people come on here to present and debate their religious views and views on religion. It's pretty much the only reason for any of us being here.
All religions are irrational, unreasonable, unacceptable or unpleasant to a greater or lesser degree. Those who follow them can usually see and accept this - but only in other religions, never in their own.
Part of my interest is in finding out how and why this cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias can survive in the face of so much opposing evidence and argument. Sometimes it is just funny watching them try to justify it. Sometimes it is disturbing.
If you are uncomfortable with the concept of religious debate on a religious debate forum - then with all due respect, perhaps you shouldn't be posting about religious debate on a religious debate forum? Just a thought.

At what moment will you start backing off?

Generally, when I am bored with it. Occasionally when I detect an element of mental health issues with my interlocutor. Always when my tea is ready.

If you want people to respect your own values in life, maybe time you accept people are different?

Respect is earned, not demanded. However, I have never presented my "values" and demanded that others respect them.
BTW, what is it about my posts that has given you the idea that I don't think people are different?

Just curious..

Curiosity is good. It is through questioning everything that we push back the boundaries of knowledge and shine light into the darker corners of our world.

 

[KWED]

Yes of course,

Hmm. Perhaps you have misunderstood what "respect" means...
Respect: A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. (OED)

Why on earth would you have a feeling of deep admiration for white supremacists, elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements?

It comes a moment in the discussion its better to stop before someone get offended.

No one has the right to not be offended.
As we have seen in some recent threads here, there are people who find even having their errors corrected "offensive". I poop you not!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The claim is he fulfilled all the prophecies. So, since he came and went without establishing a peaceful, united world, that is living under God's laws, then what prophesies in any religion support that? That support the end times promised one will be rejected and imprisoned then die and the world will go through several world wars, plagues and disasters for having rejected him?

It appears Revelation 20 is also talking of the Muslim era and as such the 1000 years prophecy about Satan being released may very well have started in 1844.

Prior to the 1000 years note is is about the time of the Beast, where Nations set their own direction and people are still strong on Christ.

The Nations are then judged, The one on the White Horse the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

We are in the Judgement Day and the time of the 2nd death.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

Yes, in that sense true. But what I mean, is, for example, a fly cannot complain to God, why you did not create him as an eagle. A monkey cannot complain why He did not create him as a human.

You don't believe those animals have souls, so they are not aware of god, or the fact that they were deliberately created a certain way.

A human cannot complain to God, why God created some humans smarter, or more beautiful.

Of course they can, in the same way a child can complain to parents who are clearly and unfairly favouring their siblings.

God does not owe anyone.

So you don't think parents owe their children anything.

He gave everyone according to His own will. And whatever He gave, it came from Him. It is just to some He gave more. That seems to include from spiritual perspective as well. Some are guided more to the truth. Some less. But all are guided. It is relative.

If god only created mankind to worship him, why do you think he helps some more than others to fulfil this one task?
Do you think it acceptable for a parent to provide an education for some of their children but not others, especially if the parent knows the outcome of not being educated (because they designed it that way)?

(This is where you avoid addressing my actual points and instead produce some meaningless platitudes and maybe unrelated gleanings from Bahaullah)

 

[CG Didymus]

No! That's not what I intended to say.
The stories in Bible as they are in Bible were revealed by God (in Bahai view).
But it is not like God only speaks literally. God revealed symbolic stories. Not literal history. But some of these stories, were misunderstood by many people. because they took everything literally true. These stories have an inner meaning.
For example according to scriptures, it is said at the End Time, the Dead will be resurrected. Most people understood this, to mean a physical resurrection. But, Bahai scriptures tells us, Resurrection of the Dead, is a metaphor, meaning awakening spiritually. So, that Day has, come, and it was an allusion to Baha'u'llah's revelation. As even the time of it was prophesied in the Bible. Bahai scriptures tells us, where in Bible the time of Manifestation of the Bab and Baha'u'llah was mentioned, and we now can see!

Moreover, When Bahais say Bible could have inaccuracies, we don't mean in a sense that it is illegitimate or has any false teachings at all. We just mean, some words may not be exactly the exact word that came out of mouth of Jesus, possibly because of errors in copying scriptures or unintentional mistakes of scribes. But not to the level that would make the Bible's illegitimate or unreliable, or make any difference.


I don't know how you concluded this. But that is not a Bahai view.



What reference from Bahai writings are you looking for? I didn't understand.

Again, all four gospel writers had the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. Why would they have suddenly started writing a fictional, symbolic story of an empty tomb and Jesus appearing to the disciples? The writers made it clear when Jesus was telling one of his parables, but why would they all write their own?

To me, it makes much more sense that legends and traditions of his resurrection began to spread. The gospel writers put these into their stories as if true. However, if false, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then the gospels should be treated as being nothing but religious myth. Sure, great spiritual, symbolic meanings in it, but not true. But that's not how they were presented nor how they were accepted. Because the NT says that he was touched and proved himself to be alive, then I believe they were meant to be taken as the literal truth of eyewitnesses to the events in the life of Jesus. Which, if it wasn't the literal truth, then it was a lie. And that's not good for Christians or Baha'is. Here once more is Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection...

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

 

[KWED]

Bahai scriptures tells us, Religions have two kinds of teachings.
1. A part of it, are the laws and ordinances, such as prayers, fasting, punishments prescribed for stealing, laws of marriage and divorce. These laws and ordinances were revealed according to the exigencies of the time, place and culture of people at the time. Religion of God does not appear in vacuum. It appears in the context of culture and conditions. Thus, as in each Age and place, the conditions of people was different so, was the ordinances, laws and the culture of Religion that was revealed. In this sense God gave different ordinances in different times. This is why you see, Christianity is different from Islam, Islam different from Hinduism, and all for all are different.

Irrelevant. If god had sent messengers all with the same message, from the very beginning, there would have been no need for context because the context comes from the differences in the message.
This would also serve to reduce wars and oppression because every contact with new people would find others were just like them.

2. The second type of teachings are not ordinances. They are spiritual teachings. These spiritual teachings are essential part of all religions of God, and they are the same. In that sense all religions are no different from each other in principle. A good example of it, is the golden rule:
Golden Rule - Wikipedia

Many religions do not follow the golden rule. They are inherently supremacist and dehumanise out-groups. They do unto others what they wouldn't like themselves because the others are different and don't deserve equal treatment. It is at the very core of the Abrahamic religions.
The Quran perfectly illustrates this when it says that disbelievers are "the worst of beasts".
Also the eternal torture of disbelievers, while the faithful laugh at them. Where is the golden rule there?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't believe those animals have souls, so they are not aware of god, or the fact that they were deliberately created a certain way.

The Bahai Writings tells us the animal world is spirit. There are 5 levels of spirt in this world
Vegetable
Animal
Human
Spirit of Faith
Holy Spirit.

It is the Human that has been given the capacity via the Holy Spirit to know and Love God.

The Vegetable and Animal and Human Spirts all aid us to find that capacity, and are essential in that process.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

No problem. I am not saying I only get to describe. In debate everyone gets to describe their side or views. I am not even saying just because I am a Bahai I definitely know everything about it, more then non-Bahais. So, I am OK, with others describe Bahai history, or teachings, or anything else, but as long as we describe them based on facts and info.

I would say that in debate that everyone gets to defend their side or views. Regarding Baha'i, I think we came to an impasse on what constitutes reliable history.

 

[KWED]

Yes i meant smear..

Looks like another word whose meaning you have misunderstood...
Smear: Damage the reputation of (someone) by false accusations; slander. (OED)

Could you point out the "false accusations"?
(Note: presenting a rational argument for why Bahaullah was not actually a messenger of god is not a "false accusation", even to people who really believe he was - especially if they cannot provide a similarly rational rebuttal)

 

[KWED]

As long it is mocking of baha'i'u'llah yes it is

It would seem that you are merely invoking faux offence as a means of avoiding addressing the points raised.
Don't worry, you aren't the first and won't be the last.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, in that sense true. But what I mean, is, for example, a fly cannot complain to God, why you did not create him as an eagle. A monkey cannot complain why He did not create him as a human. A human cannot complain to God, why God created some humans smarter, or more beautiful. God does not owe anyone. He gave everyone according to His own will. And whatever He gave, it came from Him. It is just to some He gave more. That seems to include from spiritual perspective as well. Some are guided more to the truth. Some less. But all are guided. It is relative.

Yes, if you believe God is in control of everything, planned everything, and created everything. But, in a way, everything looks pretty random. Like I can see why a person in Ukraine right now would yell out to God and ask, "Why God? Why?" After his family gets blown up. Why was he born in that city? Why that apartment building? Why was the rocket launched at that time in that direction? Why did Putin send his troops in? Why did he become the leader in Russia? All to fulfill God's plan? And, liked asked so many times, "God couldn't have come up with a better plan than this?"