Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[Trailblazer]

For starters, experienced critical thinkers do view evidence the same way. How many dozen of them have told you that what you call evidence for a messenger of God doesn't support that belief.

Experienced Baha’i critical thinkers all view the evidence the same way. How many of them have told you that what we call evidence for a messenger of God supports that belief?

Second, not all evaluation of evidence is valid. There is one way to be right about what evidence signifies, and countless ways to be wrong.

That is correct.

You seem to think that any path from evidence to conclusion is as valid as any other. I get that.

The path is correct if the correct conclusion is reached. No two people are going to take the same path from evidence to conclusion, even if they are looking at the same evidence. All human brains operate differently.

Do you get that I and millions of other people disagree?

Why would that matter?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

If you use logic and reason you would realize that few people find the narrow gate and even fewer people enter through it because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through...

It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.

Do you get that we disagree because we use a different method of deciding what's true than you do? If you used the same method, the same rules of interpreting evidence and in connecting it to a sound conclusion using valid logic, you would come to the same conclusions like the people adding do when they agree to a method and execute it flawlessly. Do you understand that people believe that, even if you don't, even if you disagree?

I know that you disagree because you believe that you use a different method of deciding what's true than I do, but I have used the same method, the same rules of interpreting evidence and in connecting it to a sound conclusion using valid logic, yet I came to a different conclusion.

Once again, I get it that you think that whatever you think is just as good as what anybody else thinks. I'm just asking if you understand that many others disagree, and why they disagree?

I'm thinking that you don't, as you never rebut the contention. You never give a reason for disagreeing. That's what makes me wonder if you understand what others are telling you.

I do understand why as it is rather obvious. You and other atheists do not view the evidence the way I view it and you and other atheists are sure you made an accurate assessment so it is be impossible for you to ever change your mind. That’s it in a nutshell.

You should realize after seeing your position paraphrased that it is understood. I have also told you specifically why I disagree. You've never done either of those.

That is not true. You said you do not see divinity in the evidence I presented and I said that I do see divinity on the evidence so you have done no more that I have done. You gave me no reason why you do not see divinity except that an ordinary man could write and do what Bahaullah wrote and did and I said I disagree because no ordinary man could write or do what Baha’u’llah wrote or did. We disagree. What more is there to be said?

You just repeat your rejected position. You just keep saying that you believe because of the evidence. When asked to give some examples of words or deeds that you think show the presence of divinity, you never do.

I ask you to present some passages from Baha'u'llah that support your claim that his words are evidence of a deity, and your answer is that that's not all you have.

You already made it clear that the deeds of Baha’u’llah could have been performed by anyone, so why would I present any more about His deeds after that?

You already made it perfectly clear that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are meaningless and you even posted some of His Writings and poked fun of them. After that why would I present any more Writings to you?

When I ask for anything, anything at all, you say that it is no one thing, but all of the evidence considered collectively. This is understood to mean that you have no evidence, yet continue to insist you do.

Innumerable times I have posted the link to the post that delineates all the evidence. This should be understood to mean that I have evidence, if you can read English.

Here it is again. The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah are in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

The differences are irrelevant. The similarities are what matters.

There are no similarities between me and Baha’u’llah and there is where your problem lies. I did not claim to be a Messenger of God. I did not fulfill any Bible prophecies. I did not make any predictions that came to pass. I did not perform any miracles. I did not give up all my wealth, possessions and property. I did not suffer and have many attempts on my life. I was never in prison. I was not banished and exiled from place to place for 40 years. I did not write 15,000 tablets. I have no world religion with followers all over the world. And that is just for starters.

You can conclude whatever you want to conclude about Baha’u’llah and it does not affect me in any way. It’s your life, not mine.

 

[CG Didymus]

No. The Messengers and Prophets knew very well. But they did not have permission to reveal them before, because they said things only as much as they were permitted by God.

And how is that worded in the Baha'i writings? I hear Baha'is try and use a verse in Daniel to "seal" up the meaning of the whole Bible. I hope that you have more than that. Oh, and did it really matter what they revealed when God knew that the followers were going to be the ones writing the message down... and that they'd get it wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Right out of the door, I never ‘claimed’ to be a Messenger of God, so what reason would anyone have to believe that I am a Messenger of God?

The evidence.

What evidence? There is no evidence that indicates that I am a messenger of God but there is evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a messenger of God. The fact that you do not recognize the evidence does not make it non-evidence.

And I used reason on it.

You could not have used reason on it because there is no evidence that indicates that I am a messenger of God.

And any argument applied to any evidence is just as good as any other.

To say that any argument applied to any evidence is just as good as any other is completely illogical.

Plus, you now have me telling them that you're a messenger of God, albeit an unwitting one - another reason for others to believe that you are a messenger. I'm telling them that you are.

Because someone told them that would be the worst reason to believe anyone is a messenger,

Messengers don't have to know that they're messengers. But the evidence says that that's what you are.

Of course a messenger had to know He was a messenger. Try to think about why.

If you have compelling evidence, you present it, assuming that you are correct and want to be believed.

I have already presented that evidence numerous times on the link to the post that has the evidence.
I could not care less if anyone believes what I believe about Baha’u’llah.

If not, you have no reason to give your argument, but you also have no reason to expect others to believe that you are correct.

I do not care what others believe. That is not my responsibility.

Having looked for this evidence and having found none, I am convinced that no deity is trying to reach me (no interventionalist God), and I am apathetic about any other kind of deity existing.

You are correct about that. No interventionalist deity is trying to reach you.

Yet that is exactly what you do - repeatedly - as you just did. Do you know why that is? Do you know why you keep telling me what I expect a god that I don't believe exists to do?

Yes, I know why. Maybe you do not expect anything from God but you do not speak for all atheists. Some atheists do expect lots of things from God, it is in all their posts.

And yes, much of this post was theater - me mirroring you back to you. I wanted you to see what your position sounds like to others.

I do not care what my position sounds like to atheists or to anyone else.
You must know what your position sounds like to Baha’is. So what?

If you have ruled out the existence of an interventionalist God, one that manifests in reality through revelation, then why are you asking me about evidence for Baha’u’llah? I do not have time for games with atheists who are trying to play me for a fool.

All this theater is a complete waste of my time. I am not interested in theater, I am only interested in reality.

Please let me know if you ever decide you care if Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God.

Meanwhile, happy trails.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, that's vague. You may as well said, "There's stuff."

In the last 20 years, what have the Baha'i done for non-Baha'i society that non-Baha'i society would consider to be good and practical and useful?

Building the foundations of a new world order in every community, that has people that wish to do likewise.

There is a lot of prophecies that tell us that will go through a few phases, and many stumbling blocks, while the majority do not want to participate.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In older times, the world was not as connected as today. I think this is why, for one side of the world, God had been sending Abrahamic Messengers, and in another places, western religions, and even for aboriginals and other farther people, He had sent other Manifestations.
But, all of these Manifestations being from Abrahamic Faiths and other Manifestations had promised of a future Age, when a universal Manifestation appears. Abramic Faiths named it Day of Judgement, a new World to come, when the Lord comes. Other Non Abrahamic Religions also spoke of a Promised One who comes at the end of a Cycle, or end of an Age.
Bahaullah is that promised One. Now, because we live in a more advance world, it is possible to have One universal Manifestation for the whole world.
Thus Bahaullah said, the world is one country and mankind its citizens.

Yes, now one messenger for the whole world is possible. The question is... Has he come and left already? I really think there is a good argument for all the trials and tribulations to happen before the great one returns. Then he fixes things. In Revelation the guy on the white horse with the new name and all that gets rid of the evil kings. He doesn't let them reject him, get thrown in jail, dies and then says, "Just for that the world is going to crumble."

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
​

Baha'is have to do a lot of creative interpreting to get these prophecies to fit. Not to mention the ones from the other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

A new way of doing this is offered, which does not reflect past practices.

Regards Tony

Has there been any problems with those in leadership positions in the Baha'i Faith? I think there has. Will there be in the future? I think there will. Affairs, embezzlement, abuse of power, misinformation? Your leaders are only people. They're bound to mess up sooner or later. The worst would be if they get overly authoritarian and start enforcing laws against sex, drugs and alcohol. Maybe laws against gun ownership too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has there been any problems with those in leadership positions in the Baha'i Faith? I think there has. Will there be in the future? I think there will. Affairs, embezzlement, abuse of power, misinformation? Your leaders are only people. They're bound to mess up sooner or later. The worst would be if they get overly authoritarian and start enforcing laws against sex, drugs and alcohol. Maybe laws against gun ownership too.

That shows one is not aware of the quality of those elected to the Universal House of Justice CG.

The Baha'i laws will be applicable only to those who embrace the Faith, so they will freely embrace the laws.

It is a learning path for all those that accept the Baha'i Faith, a path to a new world order.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Please feel free to list proofs that you see are proofs of the Spirit other than the following.

A Messenger.
The Person of the Messenger, their life and abilities.
The Message as suited to the Age.

Regards Tony

Proofs? You can pretend you have proofs of the spirit all you want, but I was one of those religious, gullible people. I was at a yoga commune. I was with Jesus Freaks. I was with the Nam yo whatever people. I was with Baha'is. I danced with Hare Krishnas. And, my favorite, danced with naked hippie women around a campfire at a full moon summer solstice gathering. I enjoyed it all. And I learned a lot. The main thing I learned is... Don't trust religious people. They believe anything and tell you it's the God-honest truth. Now a religion that doesn't preach and me and tries to convert me, I got nothing against them. They can believe whatever they want. But Baha'is aren't one of them. They are told to go "teach" the Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

That shows one is not aware of the quality of those elected to the Universal House of Justice CG.

The Baha'i laws will be applicable only to those who embrace the Faith, so they will freely embrace the laws.

It is a learning path for all those that accept the Baha'i Faith, a path to a new world order.

Regards Tony

If "God's" laws, the laws that are supposed to be necessary to bring us together in peace and harmony, aren't made the law for all people, everywhere on the planet... what good are they? The rest of the world will be free to drink, fool around with anybody of any persuasion, take drugs, own guns and believe and do what they want? Then how is the world going to be all that much different than what we have right now in places like the U.S. and Australia and the other "western" nations? If God is real, he should rule. And we should follow his rules. But that's the problem... Is he real? And are these really his rules? Would you want to live under the Jewish laws or Sharia law? Not me.

And maybe Baha'i laws aren't as strict, but I still wouldn't want to live under them. And, as seen in some of the other religions that tried to impose "God's" laws, even the leaders and believers didn't always live by the laws. But often, tried to pretend they did and then do they "sinning" in private. And I know it's happening with Baha'is and Christians and probably with people in all religions. People are just people and they're going to give in and do things that their religions forbid every once in a while.

 

[ppp]

Building the foundations of a new world order in every community, that has people that wish to do likewise.

There is a lot of prophecies that tell us that will go through a few phases, and many stumbling blocks, while the majority do not want to participate.

Regards Tony

If you cannot answer the question posed, it is better to not respond than to tap dance.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, now one messenger for the whole world is possible. The question is... Has he come and left already? I really think there is a good argument for all the trials and tribulations to happen before the great one returns. Then he fixes things. In Revelation the guy on the white horse with the new name and all that gets rid of the evil kings. He doesn't let them reject him, get thrown in jail, dies and then says, "Just for that the world is going to crumble."

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
​

Baha'is have to do a lot of creative interpreting to get these prophecies to fit. Not to mention the ones from the other religions.

Maybe not in the verses you quoted, but we already know Jesus said, the Days of Son of Man, is like the Days of Noah. He also said, even those who made holes in His body shall be there. It means, same cruel people will be there.

 

[KWED]

Because some of the stories were intentionally written by Prophets symbolically according to the will of God, so, they can last. So is with the miracles. It is not like in Bahai view, for example Jesus literally resurrected dead people, or He physically was resurrected. But scriptures were written to sound miraculous. One reason is, so, these beliefs forms and lasts among people. But that was for an older Ages, when humanity was at its childhood. Now, humanity has reached closer to Age of maturity, so, now, it was time, for the truth to be told to humanity. Now we know those stories were not literally true.

So you claim that the Bible is inaccurate and Christianity wrong because they believe stuff that is not true and was not meant to be believed. Yes?

No. The Messengers and Prophets knew very well. But they did not have permission to reveal them before, because they said things only as much as they were permitted by God.

Sounds like some pretty dodgy post hoc rationalisation.
The reality is that those "messengers" made statements and claims that are not true or are inaccurate, and now we know that, religionists are desperate to explain away the error, because they can't face the simple fact that they were not "messengers of god" communicating divine revelations, they were merely dishonest or delusional or just well-meaning but ill-informed people with an agenda.

Please quote Baha'u'llah on this. We can look at what He said, and if it is wrong.

I'm just repeating what a Baha'i on here claimed. However, as a Baha'i who has thoroughly, soundly and independently researched Bahaullah and his writings, I would have thought that you would know the reference. Let me know if you don't and I will dig it up for you.

 

[KWED]

God does not own anyone anything.

God sounds a bit like an absentee father.
Do you think that parents of the children they bring into the world are responsible for them, or do they similarly not owe them anything?

 

[KWED]

In older times, the world was not as connected as today. I think this is why, for one side of the world, God had been sending Abrahamic Messengers, and in another places, western religions, and even for aboriginals and other farther people, He had sent other Manifestations.
But, all of these Manifestations being from Abrahamic Faiths and other Manifestations had promised of a future Age, when a universal Manifestation appears. Abramic Faiths named it Day of Judgement, a new World to come, when the Lord comes. Other Non Abrahamic Religions also spoke of a Promised One who comes at the end of a Cycle, or end of an Age.
Bahaullah is that promised One. Now, because we live in a more advance world, it is possible to have One universal Manifestation for the whole world.
Thus Bahaullah said, the world is one country and mankind its citizens.

But that would have been the perfect way to demonstrate his existence and the truth of his message - as new worlds were discovered and new peoples connected it turns out that they all have messengers revealing exactly the same message.
Bam!
But no. The best idea god could come up with was to make it look exactly as if there were thousands of different gods and messages, all conflicting with each other, and all equally convince they are the one true religion.
So the evidence suggests that either god is an idiot, or he doesn't exist.
QED.

 

[KWED]

One reason you do not believe that the Baha'i Faith is true because you listen to what Baha'is say

That's a pretty damning indictment of your own faith. And kinda sums up the problems you all have here. What you say sounds like complete nonsense. And you even admit that, but you keep saying it and also claiming its is true.

instead of investigating for yourself.

And yet when people do, and conclude that it is nonsense, you merely invoke the No True Scotsman fallacy.

It does not MATTER what Baha'is claim about the Baha'i Faith or other religions, it only matters if Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God or not. Nothing else matters.

The evidence suggests he was not. It is only Baha'is insisting that he was that perpetuates the issue.

What Baha’u’llah wrote in The Kitáb-i-Íqán on the very first pages is critical. The following is part of the last sentence of a longer paragraph, the vitally important part.

“…… inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot determine whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God according to what other people say or do.

So we can cease to regard the words and deeds of Bahaullah as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. We cannot use his words to determine if he was a messenger of god.

What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.

And how do we do that if we cannot use the writings of Bahaullah? They seem to be your only source!

How to Independently Investigate the Truth

So basically, whatever conclusion we come to from looking within ourselves must necessarily be true.
Note: without Baha'i writings as a reference source, it its impossible to come to the conclusion that Bahaullah was a messenger of god.

Yet again, your argument is logically incoherent.

 

[KWED]

A new way of doing this is offered, which does not reflect past practices.

Regards Tony

So we must't rely on god for guidance, we must rely on god to guide us to a new method of guidance?
This whole subject is becoming more and more circular and incoherent.

 

[KWED]

Please feel free to list proofs that you see are proofs of the Spirit other than the following.

A Messenger.
The Person of the Messenger, their life and abilities.
The Message as suited to the Age.

Regards Tony

You haven't shown that there even is a "spirit". You have merely asserted it.
You then further assert that someone claiming to be something is proof that their claim is true if you believe their claim.
You then claim that your belief that the messenger is genuine is proof that they are genuine.

The circular incoherence is mind-boggling.
And of course, confirmation bias cognitive dissonance prevents people from realising it.

 

[KWED]

Baha’i critical thinkers

Surely an oxymoron?

 

[KWED]

Building the foundations of a new world order in every community,

And how have they done that?

There is a lot of prophecies that tell us that will go through a few phases, and many stumbling blocks, while the majority do not want to participate.

More "stating the bleedin' obvious" than "prophesy", surely?

Here's another prophecy... My attempts to start a new world order will have several phases, many stumbling blocks, while the majority do not want to participate.
How accurate do you think that will be?

 

[KWED]

That shows one is not aware of the quality of those elected to the Universal House of Justice CG.

Many Republicans believe Trump is a good man, a man of principles, who is fighting for their best interests.
Same with Tories and Johnson.
Same with Russians and Putin. Indians and Modhi, etc, etc.

Your claim that the leaders you approve of and look up to are squeaky clean and to be trusted are no more believable.

The Baha'i laws will be applicable only to those who embrace the Faith, so they will freely embrace the laws.

So your New World Order will never happen.

It is a learning path for all those that accept the Baha'i Faith, a path to a new world order.

But it isn't a "New World Order" if it is only followed by a few million Baha'i. It is just another sizeable cult.