Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[InvestigateTruth]

I'll go with invention. Six different things that begin and end at different times are all made to begin with the Hegira in 621AD and end in 1844. Which is year 1260 in the Islamic calendar, but all six things? That's some creative interpreting to make that work. And is it The Christ that returns in 1844? No, it is a man that the Baha'is call a manifestation, but they also say he is the forerunner to the main manifestation that is to come. And he doesn't reveal himself until 1863. And, as far as I know, I've only heard one manipulated prophecies that is made to end in 1863. This one...

In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.​

My problems with this is that all the other prophesies the Baha'is start with the Hegira. This one, though, they go back a few years, then make it lunar years. Which is consistent with what Baha'is do with the 1260 day prophecies, except with the 1335 day prophecy Baha'is make that one solar years. So, for me, that's kind of showing that Baha'is have to manipulate things to make them get to the desired date.

The fact is, 1260 days is repeated many times in the Bible, and when you count the 2300 days it comes to 1844, which is year 1260A.H


The Bab declared in the year 1260 Ah.
In Bahai view, there is only one Spirit of Christ. Everytime, thr Manifestation of God appears, He is the Christ returned. So, in our view even Muhammad was return of Christ. We don't see messengers as different Beings spiritually. Only their individuality is different, but their Reality is one.
So, all of this makes sense to me, and are believable. I understand it is not believable to many others.

Just take one book, the book of Revelation. It has details before and after the promised Christ returns. Where in it do you find Christ returning and getting rejected and imprisoned? He's not rejected by the kings he conquers the kings. He's not imprisoned. He has Satan imprisoned.

The expressions used in Revelation are symbols. It does not use literal words, to describe things in a physical sense. Imprisonment of the Promised is in Revelation, but it is expressed with symbology. When it calls Him, "the Lamb", this is a symbol, and it means the promised one will have to be sacrificed. This gives this message that the Promised One will have to suffer and be sacrificed.

When it says, the promised one defeats the Satan, this is a spiritual reality. It is about establishing the True Religion. It means when the promised one comes, He successfully establishes the true Religion despite the opposition of evil forces. Meaning His spiritual forces win against Satan.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is strange. Maybe there is a miscommunication here.
What I said is, the letters on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, is not as authoritative as letters written by himself, because these letters are not exactly his own words and style of writing.
If you showed a letter written by Shoghi Effendi, or a paragraph in a book written by shoghi effendi, saying that, Bible is wrong on saying Issac was to be sacrificed, then you made your point. But as far as I know there is no such a thing. A letter written on behalf of Guardian does not prove that, this is the Bahai position on Bible.
Remember, Baha'u'llah wrote, the Bible has not become corrupted.

Are there more quotes you can give me to support that? Because if it was Ishmael and not Isaac... isn't that an error? Then how much of the Bible was written by or at least dictated by a manifestation? Even with the prophets. Was it the prophets themselves that wrote the books attributed to them?

Then does that go for the NT also? We have anonymous authors in some of the books. There are contradictions in some of the stories about Jesus. And again, a manifestation didn't write any of it. Of course, most Christians trust it to be the word of God, but why would Baha'is? But, because Baha'is change the meanings anyway by making some things symbolic, it doesn't matter how accurate the words were. They don't mean what they appear to mean. Again, like the resurrection. The empty tomb? Jesus saying to touch him and see he is alive and not a ghost. Then in Acts saying that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. All those can't mean what they appear to mean. So, to me, that's not much different than saying it was written in error or saying that all those things weren't literal but symbolic. It still makes what it says wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

The fact is, 1260 days is repeated many times in the Bible, and when you count the 2300 days it comes to 1844, which is year 1260A.H

Here's the 2300 evenings and mornings...

Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
​

Have you calculated this out or are just going by William Miller's guess?

First who is this "horn"? It tells us.

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.​

So, who is this king of Greece and the four kingdoms that emerged?

Out of one of those horns came another one that took away the daily sacrifice and threw down the sanctuary. Then, how long before the sanctuary is reconsecrated? 2300 evenings and mornings.

How do Baha'is and William Miller justify starting the 2300 evenings and mornings with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC? Especially when later in Daniel when the daily sacrifice and abomination are mentioned again with the 1290 days and 1335 days, the Baha'is start one with the secret declaration of Muhammad and the other with the Hejira.

Sure, it all comes out to the dates you want, but how do you justify the year you start counting the years? And, the other thing, we know when Antiochus Epiphanes did desecrate the Temple in Jerusalem and put a stop to the daily prayer.

In 167 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes sacked Jerusalem and defiled the temple by sacrificing a sow on an altar erected to Zeus. The desecration ended the temple sacrifices and triggered the Maccabean revolt.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Is not the same spiritual intent that Jesus the Christ was born of the Holy Spirit?

Regards Tony

I know you don't like all this run around. But there are no definite answers. Christians re-interpret Judaism to make themselves the new truth. Then Islam does it to Judaism and Christianity. And now the Baha'i Faith is doing it to all religions. And, in a lot of ways, I'd agree. The Baha'i Faith is an improvement. It's great that the Baha'is Faith has a plan that they believe can create a peaceful, united world. Trying to convince people that Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God and to try and prove that God is real, aren't getting Baha'is anywhere. It's unprovable.

Is there a better way for Baha'is to get their message out? I think there is... quit trying to prove things that can't be proven to people who demand objective evidence and proof. It is causing nothing but continual argument.

Same thing with "prophecies". Baha'is believe they have been fulfilled, even I, not even close to being a scholar, finds excessive problems with the Baha'i interpretations. Believe what you want. But, like you say... what is the spiritual intent? The spiritual intent is for people to understand and respect each other's beliefs. I think it has to start with Baha'is. Baha'is have to be the peacemakers. Atheists aren't going to do it. Born-again Christians aren't. But Baha'is aren't creating peace but are helping promote disunity... If they keep saying things that make themselves, the Baha'is, right and everyone else wrong.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Are there more quotes you can give me to support that? Because if it was Ishmael and not Isaac... isn't that an error? Then how much of the Bible was written by or at least dictated by a manifestation? Even with the prophets. Was it the prophets themselves that wrote the books attributed to them?

Then does that go for the NT also? We have anonymous authors in some of the books. There are contradictions in some of the stories about Jesus. And again, a manifestation didn't write any of it. Of course, most Christians trust it to be the word of God, but why would Baha'is? But, because Baha'is change the meanings anyway by making some things symbolic, it doesn't matter how accurate the words were. They don't mean what they appear to mean. Again, like the resurrection. The empty tomb? Jesus saying to touch him and see he is alive and not a ghost. Then in Acts saying that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. All those can't mean what they appear to mean. So, to me, that's not much different than saying it was written in error or saying that all those things weren't literal but symbolic. It still makes what it says wrong.

From a Tablet by Baha'u'llah:

"It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books,[15] given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation.[16]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know you don't like all this run around. But there are no definite answers. Christians re-interpret Judaism to make themselves the new truth. Then Islam does it to Judaism and Christianity. And now the Baha'i Faith is doing it to all religions. And, in a lot of ways, I'd agree. The Baha'i Faith is an improvement. It's great that the Baha'is Faith has a plan that they believe can create a peaceful, united world. Trying to convince people that Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God and to try and prove that God is real, aren't getting Baha'is anywhere. It's unprovable.

That is the history of Faith CG, Baha'u'llah said that will not change. God will always offer the Messengers at a time of great need, when our ability to embrace God is at the lowest ebb.

That is why the Messenger becomes the the first and the last, they are the new creation and at the same time bringing the old creation to an end. We are responsible only for our reactions to that Message.

Is there a better way for Baha'is to get their message out? I think there is... quit trying to prove things that can't be proven to people who demand objective evidence and proof. It is causing nothing but continual argument.

Living the life was the best way CG, yet Baha'i are just human as all other are. We can only try, we have the same choices as every person on this planet has.

Same thing with "prophecies". Baha'is believe they have been fulfilled, even I, not even close to being a scholar, finds excessive problems with the Baha'i interpretations. Believe what you want. But, like you say... what is the spiritual intent? The spiritual intent is for people to understand and respect each other's beliefs. I think it has to start with Baha'is. Baha'is have to be the peacemakers. Atheists aren't going to do it. Born-again Christians aren't. But Baha'is aren't creating peace but are helping promote disunity... If they keep saying things that make themselves, the Baha'is, right and everyone else wrong.

The spiritual intent is for us to come to know and Love God, to do that we first have to know our own self, as God stands within us all, ready for our choices to enable that light to shine from us.

What you offer as disunity is the Message of Baha’u’llah, it is not the Baha'i that gave the Message, we are given the task of sharing it.

They are all available, a Baha'i does not have to share them, so if no one reads them, or becomes aware of them, is there any disunity in the Message? Or is it a result of our understanding of it, as consider, Baha'i of all faiths have found it does not offer conflict or disunity.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How do Baha'is and William Miller justify starting the 2300 evenings and mornings with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC?

It is not really about justification. You can see how William reached to this year (1844).
But the old Testament also have a prophecy about Jesus. It is the seventy weeks prophecy. If one counts from 457 BC, it comes exactly to the year the mission of Jesus was declared. So, now if we go by the same origin (457), it comes to the year 1844.

Unless you say, it was just a coincidence that both year of Manifestation of Jesus and the Bab, matches with what is said in old testament.

Especially when later in Daniel when the daily sacrifice and abomination are mentioned again with the 1290 days and 1335 days, the Baha'is start one with the secret declaration of Muhammad and the other with the Hejira.

The Bahais don't do that. Abdulbaha did that, so it is part of Bahai Scriptures. It is not something Bahais came up with later.

The scriptures does not say explicitly, from when to count. But the prophecy did not come from man, it came from God, thus, God Himself explains them.
But don't you wonder that, how come for each case, the period is matched with time of Manifestation of the Bab and Bahaullah?


If you really think of it, it could have been that, none of these periods could be matched. Suppose, it was said 1230 days instead of 1260 Days. Or it was said 2400 days instead of 2300 days. Or it was said 1340 days instead of 1335 days. Or it was said 1285 days instead of 1290 days.

Now, try and match them with the dates of Bahai Faith. According to you, it is always possible to invent and match with Bible. So, you have all the time now think and Come up with something and show even if these periods were slightly different, still it was possible to work them out and somehow come up with an interpretation to fit with Bahai dates.
Give it a try!

 

[Sheldon]

The stories are symbolic, and one reason is, this way, these stories can last among generations for centuries or more. Symbolically stories last generations and centuries, as beliefs among people.

Not really, the minute modern science starting deviating form the claims, the impression an objective reader gets, is unavoidable conclusions the "stories" are extremely unlikely to have been derived from an omniscient mind. As KWED points out, people would have an expectation the claims were true, many theists still do, and risible deny scientific facts to preserve that errant belief.

If the bible or the koran, contained hard facts, and science was demonstrated to support them, centuries later, that might have been compelling, but as it stands the errancy and Occam's razor suggest a more obvious inference.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not really, the minute modern science starting deviating form the claims, the impression an objective reader gets, is unavoidable conclusions the "stories" are extremely unlikely to have been derived from an omniscient mind. As KWED points out, people would have an expectation the claims were true, many theists still do, and risible deny scientific facts to preserve that errant belief.

If the bible or the koran, contained hard facts, and science was demonstrated to support them, centuries later, that might have been compelling, but as it stands the errancy and Occam's razor suggest a more obvious inference.

Yes, in our time science is advanced, but consider past Ages.

 

[CG Didymus]

But the old Testament also have a prophecy about Jesus. It is the seventy weeks prophecy. If one counts from 457 BC, it comes exactly to the year the mission of Jesus was declared. So, now if we go by the same origin (457), it comes to the year 1844.

Daniel 9:25 From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’​

And that's the question, why do you start the 2300 mornings and evenings from 457BC.

The scriptures does not say explicitly, from when to count.

Daniel 8:11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down...
​

The daily sacrifice is taken away by some ruler. Who was he? When did this happen? That's the starting date.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
​

When will the sanctuary be reconsecrated? This all very easily can be the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus Epiphanes. He defiled the Temple. The Jews rebelled against him and won. And reconsecrated the Temple.

Nothing in the prophecies in Chapter 8 have anything to do with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 547BC. Then how do you interpret mornings and evenings? Then... Do you care how the Jews interpret their own Scriptures?

Then... We have the one prophecy that gets us to the time of Jesus. You say the one gets us to The Bab. One extremely manipulated one gets us to Baha'u'llah and the other part of it, the 1335 days, has some problems. But there' a greater issue... Muhammad is left out of Daniel's prophecies. How come?

 

[CG Didymus]

If you really think of it, it could have been that, none of these periods could be matched. Suppose, it was said 1230 days instead of 1260 Days. Or it was said 2400 days instead of 2300 days. Or it was said 1340 days instead of 1335 days. Or it was said 1285 days instead of 1290 days.

Here's the problems...

A number of believers requested guidance from Shoghi Effendi about how to calculate the date that will coincide with the fulfilment of the 1,335 days. We provide two responses written on behalf of the Guardian:

The 1335 days referred to by Daniel will be fulfilled in 1963. The date of the Hijra is 622 A.D. The 1335 days is figured according to the solar calendar, but in adjusting the 1335 days, one must take into consideration the time at which the prophecies were given and change them into solar time, which would bring the date to 1963.
There is one thing of importance for the Bahá'ís to understand; and that is, that this prophecy refers to happenings within the Faith, not occurrences outside the Faith. It refers specifically to the spread of the Faith over the face of the earth. This will be accomplished when the Bahá'í Faith is firmly established in all of the virgin areas outlined in the Ten Year Crusade, and the other goals of the Crusade are completed. Thus it behoves us to work day and night in order to accomplish this glorious goal.
(18 December 1953 to an individual believer)​

But then it says it is not the fulfillment of the 1335 days?

It is noteworthy that insufficient information is provided in the first extract to permit a precise calculation, while in the second, the Guardian's secretary indicates that a calculation would not give "the exact date of 1963, but a few more years". The Research Department has not been able to locate any additional authoritative texts which contain detailed instructions concerning how to make the calculation.

In "God Passes By", page 151, Shoghi Effendi allies the "hundred lunar " years after the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh with the fulfilment of the 1,335 days of Daniel's prophecy. The only other reference to one hundred "lunar" years that the Research Department has, so far, been able to find, is contained in a letter dated 31 October 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly. This letter clarifies the mistaken assumption that the year 1335 relates to the centenary of Bahá'u'lláh's mystic experience in the Siyah-Chal (i.e., 1952-1953):

He wishes me to point out that this is inaccurate as on page 151 of "God Passes By", in the references to His Declaration, the Guardian clearly states that with this Declaration the "hundred lunar years" ... had commenced'. The mystic experience of Bahá'u'lláh was in the Siyah- Chal and has nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy.

While it is clear that the prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the spread of the Bahá'í Faith throughout the world, several different dates are given in our authoritative texts for the actual fulfilment of this prophecy. As mentioned earlier, the two Tablets of the Master which are cited in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá", page 31, suggest different dates for the fulfilment of the prophecy of the 1,335 days: 1963 and 1957. Further, in the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian indicates that these same Tablets form the basis for his interpretation of the date of the fulfilment of the 1,335 days referred to in Daniel. Three different dates are either given by the Guardian or can be inferred from these same Tablets -- 1957, 1960, and 1963.
​

So, not only do Baha'is manipulate where to start counting the years in a prophecy, now they have multiple years that when the prophecy gets fulfilled? Sorry, I have no confidence in how Baha'i interpret any of these prophecies. If you think they are accurate and true, fine.

​

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, in our time science is advanced, but consider past Ages.

There's a difference between a symbolic story and a story that is written as if it is true. The historical stories in the Bible are written as if they really happened. Prophecies and parables are different. You can make them as symbolic as you like. The problem with the historical stories is they have so many embellishments in them, they don't sound believable. A few thousand years ago, though? And, as we know, even today some people believe those stories literally. Why? Because they are told to. Because they are taught it is the inerrant truth.

The Baha'i "inerrant" truth makes whatever it wants to, symbolic. And, like Tony says, what's important is the intent. The phony, made up, embellished stories were intended to make people believe in God and to follow his laws. Make them symbolic if you like, but I think it ruins the credibility of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[rational experiences]

No future predictions is first.

One atmosphere owning all of its natural one named unified gases water oxygenated in life the human.

Who thinks.

No future just one. Right as you li ve exact.

Meaning you cannot future predict what one already owned unified. No such status a future by atmospheric bonds union.

Bahuallah a man of his owned times. Shroud life present proven sacrificed man opposition occurred in that history. No change but sacrifice exact some losses of oxygen. Irradiated DNA only.

Sexual behaviour to be developed as human inherited brain changed advice.

His warning exact right at his mo ment told to warn stop Muslim elders pursuit maths temple science rebuilding. Pyramid technology.

Warning was nowhere else. Lived exactly life deevolved time shifted lost DNA but was saved to live on as same incidence.

Known exact a minus one compared to gained cooling ice melted cooled both burning gas heavens heated water heavens the star fall burnt caused.

Numbers is not age as age is inherited numbers used in the sciences only.

The warnings for man of human of his time. If he was listened to then probably no nuclear or inventive technology would exist today as AI destruction.

As man Informed agreement by community would have lawfully dealt with Dark ages mind behaviour.

Right at the moment men demonstrated the futures agreement holy man's murder.

By status aware new world order agreed laws had forewarned to deal with changed human consciousness.

Was the exact lived warning condition only.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here's the problems...

A number of believers requested guidance from Shoghi Effendi about how to calculate the date that will coincide with the fulfilment of the 1,335 days. We provide two responses written on behalf of the Guardian:

The 1335 days referred to by Daniel will be fulfilled in 1963. The date of the Hijra is 622 A.D. The 1335 days is figured according to the solar calendar, but in adjusting the 1335 days, one must take into consideration the time at which the prophecies were given and change them into solar time, which would bring the date to 1963.
There is one thing of importance for the Bahá'ís to understand; and that is, that this prophecy refers to happenings within the Faith, not occurrences outside the Faith. It refers specifically to the spread of the Faith over the face of the earth. This will be accomplished when the Bahá'í Faith is firmly established in all of the virgin areas outlined in the Ten Year Crusade, and the other goals of the Crusade are completed. Thus it behoves us to work day and night in order to accomplish this glorious goal.
(18 December 1953 to an individual believer)​

But then it says it is not the fulfillment of the 1335 days?

It is noteworthy that insufficient information is provided in the first extract to permit a precise calculation, while in the second, the Guardian's secretary indicates that a calculation would not give "the exact date of 1963, but a few more years". The Research Department has not been able to locate any additional authoritative texts which contain detailed instructions concerning how to make the calculation.

In "God Passes By", page 151, Shoghi Effendi allies the "hundred lunar " years after the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh with the fulfilment of the 1,335 days of Daniel's prophecy. The only other reference to one hundred "lunar" years that the Research Department has, so far, been able to find, is contained in a letter dated 31 October 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly. This letter clarifies the mistaken assumption that the year 1335 relates to the centenary of Bahá'u'lláh's mystic experience in the Siyah-Chal (i.e., 1952-1953):

He wishes me to point out that this is inaccurate as on page 151 of "God Passes By", in the references to His Declaration, the Guardian clearly states that with this Declaration the "hundred lunar years" ... had commenced'. The mystic experience of Bahá'u'lláh was in the Siyah- Chal and has nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy.

While it is clear that the prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the spread of the Bahá'í Faith throughout the world, several different dates are given in our authoritative texts for the actual fulfilment of this prophecy. As mentioned earlier, the two Tablets of the Master which are cited in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá", page 31, suggest different dates for the fulfilment of the prophecy of the 1,335 days: 1963 and 1957. Further, in the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian indicates that these same Tablets form the basis for his interpretation of the date of the fulfilment of the 1,335 days referred to in Daniel. Three different dates are either given by the Guardian or can be inferred from these same Tablets -- 1957, 1960, and 1963.
​

So, not only do Baha'is manipulate where to start counting the years in a prophecy, now they have multiple years that when the prophecy gets fulfilled? Sorry, I have no confidence in how Baha'i interpret any of these prophecies. If you think they are accurate and true, fine.

How do you know it is manuplation?
It could be that, God had said those numbers in Torah, and layer when He sent Abdulbaha, He revealed their interpretations, and showed us how they are fulfilled.

I understand, you simply cannot believe it.

In my view there was a wisdom. The 1335, was fulfilled in the year 1963, which is establishment of the first Universal House of Justice.
But, there was a wisdom, that Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi did not reveal it. They did not want to say ahead of time, when the Universal House of Justice will be established. That is why, they just said it will be fulfilled in a period of time. They also said, it is related to what happens inside the faith. So, now we know they were giving signs, this 1335 was about UHJ.


So, you agree that if Days numbers (1260, 1290, 1335, 2300) were a little different, it was impossible to match them with Bahai dates.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Daniel 9:25 From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’​

And that's the question, why do you start the 2300 mornings and evenings from 457BC.

Because that is when the command to rebuild was issued, when they actually rebuilt it.
Let me give you example. Suppose you say, from the time, the baby comes. Now, a woman could have been pregnant twice before the baby was born, in both cases the child died in the womb before born. But the third time, the baby actually born. So, the command to rebuilt was issued three times, but the one in 457 BC actually accomplished it.

​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's a difference between a symbolic story and a story that is written as if it is true. The historical stories in the Bible are written as if they really happened. Prophecies and parables are different. You can make them as symbolic as you like. The problem with the historical stories is they have so many embellishments in them, they don't sound believable. A few thousand years ago, though? And, as we know, even today some people believe those stories literally. Why? Because they are told to. Because they are taught it is the inerrant truth.

The Baha'i "inerrant" truth makes whatever it wants to, symbolic. And, like Tony says, what's important is the intent. The phony, made up, embellished stories were intended to make people believe in God and to follow his laws. Make them symbolic if you like, but I think it ruins the credibility of the Baha'i Faith.

I agree, it has been very difficult to recognize the stories in Bible were not actually literal. But as the Book says, it was sealed and only wise understands.
The wise, with the standard of God, is different from what we may think.
Apparently more than 99.99 percent of people were not wise by definition of scriptures. Only Prophets and chosen ones of God are that wise to have recognized symbols in the scriptures.
Remember, the Holy Book is a Book of God, so, why do you expect it to be easy to interpret?

 

[CG Didymus]

So, you agree that if Days numbers (1260, 1290, 1335, 2300) were a little different, it was impossible to match them with Bahai dates.

No, I don't agree. Baha'is took 457BC and applied it to a prophecy of 2300 evenings and mornings that had no relation to that year as when to start counting the years. With the 1260 days, six different things are made to equal 1260 lunar years and all are started with the year of the Hejira, 621. None of them started in that year. And none of them ended in 1844. The 1290 days are given a starting day ten years before the Hejira and made into lunar years to arrive at 1863. The 1335 day prophecy goes back to starting with the Hejira, but Baha'is have it ending in different years?

So, let me give you a random prophecy. In 100 years of this day, the promised one will come. Baha'is usually make 1844 the big year. But that's not Baha'u'llah but the Bab. So, what are you going to do with this 100 years? Make start in 1744 or 1763. Then are you going to keep it solar years or change it to lunar years? Then are you to convert it 360,000 days and then change it back to years? There's several ways to manipulate any prophetic number. As is done by Baha'is with the prophecies of Kalki and Maitreya.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, I don't agree. Baha'is took 457BC and applied it to a prophecy of 2300 evenings and mornings that had no relation to that year as when to start counting the years. With the 1260 days, six different things are made to equal 1260 lunar years and all are started with the year of the Hejira, 621. None of them started in that year. And none of them ended in 1844. The 1290 days are given a starting day ten years before the Hejira and made into lunar years to arrive at 1863. The 1335 day prophecy goes back to starting with the Hejira, but Baha'is have it ending in different years?

So, let me give you a random prophecy. In 100 years of this day, the promised one will come. Baha'is usually make 1844 the big year. But that's not Baha'u'llah but the Bab. So, what are you going to do with this 100 years? Make start in 1744 or 1763. Then are you going to keep it solar years or change it to lunar years? Then are you to convert it 360,000 days and then change it back to years? There's several ways to manipulate any prophetic number. As is done by Baha'is with the prophecies of Kalki and Maitreya.

I don't know. You are saying it is through manuplation, not me. So, if it was 1285, how do you manupilate it?
Wait a second, maybe it is not really manuplation? Maybe that's what the scripture is really about.

 

[rational experiences]

Do you realise you are a human man as a man and as a man are natural and spiritual?

The unnatural human thinker behaviour the theist scientist is making unnatural claims in human status ownership.

So as you naturally live you read your documents beliefs and impose correct and good behaviours as it's easy in life not to be good.

Hence you aren't living out any prophecy you are trying to implement it yourself by just men in life choosing?

The spiritual man will always be natural. The dis spirited man by choice ought to think how incorrect he is. As men's life do not own atmospheric mass.

The earth and space do.

If you factor what you claim is future time. You reach it by human age human rebirth by sex then human age.

Aging yourself body changing all the time.

If you impose a numbered future reasoned as dates only as counting earth cycles.... you accept the definition yourself. How have you changed not being the spiritual man in natural life?

You hadn't. Is not gaining a prophecy. As Jesus asked the elite to change their lifestyle. Only human's who believed lived a good moral life. Everyone else remained the same.

 

[CG Didymus]

When it says, the promised one defeats the Satan, this is a spiritual reality. It is about establishing the True Religion. It means when the promised one comes, He successfully establishes the true Religion despite the opposition of evil forces. Meaning His spiritual forces win against Satan.

Other than your religion, which had the prophet write his own books, which handed down the leadership to a specific person, and that had a plan of how to set up an administrative order... what other religion "established" anything? Christianity is a good example of what happens when the prophet doesn't write his own books. The leadership and administration became the church in Rome. And that didn't work out that well.

Maybe Judaism? They had prophets, and Levitical Priests, and, eventually, a Temple.