CG Didymus
Veteran Member
One more question that relates to this. It seems like Baha'is trust the Quran more than the Bible. So, there's a NT version of the birth of Jesus and the version in the Quran. Which one is true?
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Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Bahais trust both Bible and Quran equally, because in Bahai Scriptures we are not told to trust Quran more than the Bible.
It is a matter of interpretation. We see Quran and Bible reconcilable, because we don't see them literal. We see them as spiritual realities.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
This is what I was referring to...
As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael, although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22.9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur'án, which book is more authentic than the Bible including both the New and the Old Testaments. The Bible is not Wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 501
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 501
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't know anything about the Hadiths. The Hadiths say the Qaim will be imprisoned and the Islamic leaders imprisoned Baha'u'llah? So, how do they interpret what the Hadiths said, and how do justify what they did?
But still the problem is the other religions. There's lots of verses that have the Messiah, Kalki, Maitreya, or whoever coming and fixing things and conquering his enemies. Nothing about him being rejected and imprisoned. So, it's great for Baha'is that they have something from the Islamic Hadiths to back up their beliefs, but I think it should be supported by prophecies in all the major religions, not just one.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I know, but what you quoted here is not a Bahai scripture.
It is letter written on behalf of the Guardian, which can include errors just as a Hadith that can have errors.
This is now scriptures:
"How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? " Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan
Bahais do not believe the Bible have any intentional alteration. The errors therefor could have only happened unintentionally.
Just as this letter on behalf of the Guardian have unintentional errors.
In such cases, when a Hadith contredicts the Quran, or a letter on behalf of Gurdian contradicts the Bahai scriptures, we go with the latter.
It is impossible that, someone unintentionally replaced Ismael with Issac in the Bible. So, to say, someone changed Ismael to Issac in the Bible contradicts with what Baha'u'llah says, because a man who believed the Bible is from God could not possibly change it intentionally.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
We do not need any support from other religions. For Bahais, Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God.
But the Hadithes, or the Bible predicted correctly what would happen when the promised One comes.
We already have an example, where both the Bible, and Quran points to the year 1844, as the year, the promised one appears. But still most people do not even care, or believe it. They think it is coincidence, or inventions.
So, do you really think, if all other Books have literally said the promised one will be imprisoned, it would have made a difference for people?
I don't think so.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Islam...
The birth of Prophet Isa (AS) was no ordinary birth, it was a miracle! When Maryam (AS) found out that she was expecting a child, she was very confused;
“She said, ‘My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?’ [The angel] said, ‘Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.’” (Surah Al-Imran:47)
Thereafter, Maryam (AS) submitted to the will of Allah (SWT) and secluded herself from society and gave birth to Isa (AS) under a date palm tree, which served as her source of nourishment during labor. When she returned to her people with a son in hand, she was denounced and condemned for supposedly falling in sin but that did not deter Maryam as her faith in Allah (SWT) was supreme and unrelenting. Allah (SWT) did not leave Maryam (AS) alone, He had granted several miracles to the child, Isa (AS), who was a miracle himself. As the people were doubting Maryam (AS), Isa (AS) spoke from his cradle, thereby astonishing the people and confirming Maryam’s (AS) story.
New Testament...“She said, ‘My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?’ [The angel] said, ‘Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, “Be,” and it is.’” (Surah Al-Imran:47)
Thereafter, Maryam (AS) submitted to the will of Allah (SWT) and secluded herself from society and gave birth to Isa (AS) under a date palm tree, which served as her source of nourishment during labor. When she returned to her people with a son in hand, she was denounced and condemned for supposedly falling in sin but that did not deter Maryam as her faith in Allah (SWT) was supreme and unrelenting. Allah (SWT) did not leave Maryam (AS) alone, He had granted several miracles to the child, Isa (AS), who was a miracle himself. As the people were doubting Maryam (AS), Isa (AS) spoke from his cradle, thereby astonishing the people and confirming Maryam’s (AS) story.
Mary and Joseph had to travel to Bethlehem because of an order from the Roman emperor that a census, or record, of all people, be taken in their hometown. After traveling pregnant on a donkey for several days, Mary and Joseph arrived in Bethlehem and were told that there were no places to stay. The inns were full. Seeing that Mary was due at any moment, an owner of an inn told Joseph that they could stay in his stable.
Mary and Joseph settled down on the hay in a stable with animals sleeping. Mary went into labor and Jesus was born in the stable. The only place for the sleeping baby to rest was most likely in the animals' trough, known as the manger.
During this time, an angel appeared to shepherds who were watching their flocks in the fields near Bethlehem. The angel told them the good news of the birth of the Savior and Messiah, Jesus Christ. The shepherds immediately went to find baby Jesus, which the angels told them they would find sleeping in the manger.
After some time, three wise men, also known as magi, saw the brilliant star in that sky that rested over where Jesus was born. The three wise men traveled from a distant eastern country to find the new king. During the wise men's trip, Herod the king of Judah met with the wise men and told them to come back and let him know where the baby king was so that he could go worship him as well. The wise men continued to Bethlehem and found Jesus right where the star pointed. They knelt and worshipped the Savior and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. They then traveled back home a different way knowing that King Herod was not intending to worship Jesus but that he planned to kill the baby.
What do you think? I wouldn't have a problem if both versions were made up, borrowed, or copied from some other source.Mary and Joseph settled down on the hay in a stable with animals sleeping. Mary went into labor and Jesus was born in the stable. The only place for the sleeping baby to rest was most likely in the animals' trough, known as the manger.
During this time, an angel appeared to shepherds who were watching their flocks in the fields near Bethlehem. The angel told them the good news of the birth of the Savior and Messiah, Jesus Christ. The shepherds immediately went to find baby Jesus, which the angels told them they would find sleeping in the manger.
After some time, three wise men, also known as magi, saw the brilliant star in that sky that rested over where Jesus was born. The three wise men traveled from a distant eastern country to find the new king. During the wise men's trip, Herod the king of Judah met with the wise men and told them to come back and let him know where the baby king was so that he could go worship him as well. The wise men continued to Bethlehem and found Jesus right where the star pointed. They knelt and worshipped the Savior and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. They then traveled back home a different way knowing that King Herod was not intending to worship Jesus but that he planned to kill the baby.
Is not the same spiritual intent that Jesus the Christ was born of the Holy Spirit?
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
He's your guy. I don't care if you don't want to listen to him. But here's some quotes...
The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings; he is not an infallible authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc.
Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to 'matters which are related strictly to the Cause'. He further points out that 'he is not, like the Prophet, omniscient at will', that his 'infallibility covers interpretation of the Revealed Word and its application', and that he is also 'infallible in the protection of the Faith'. Furthermore, in one of the letters, the following guideline is set forth:
"'... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.
Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 311
Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to 'matters which are related strictly to the Cause'. He further points out that 'he is not, like the Prophet, omniscient at will', that his 'infallibility covers interpretation of the Revealed Word and its application', and that he is also 'infallible in the protection of the Faith'. Furthermore, in one of the letters, the following guideline is set forth:
"'... It is not for individual believers to limit the sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to state what matters which, affecting the interests of the Faith, demand on the part of the believers, complete and unqualified obedience to his instructions.
Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 311
I don't see how this is not intentional. Ishmael is sent away and Isaac is taken to be sacrificed. Scribes were careful to make exact copies. If one scribe made an unintentional mistake it would be in one copy and get discarded. All the scribes would have to be in on making such a drastic change as to switch Ishmael to Isaac.
Genesis 21:8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
22:1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
22:1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's link to a Messianic Jewish site listing 40 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. It includes that he would be resurrected and be pierced. So, I see no reason why it wouldn't mention that when the Messiah returns in the end-times that he would be rejected and imprisoned.
And again from a Jewish site...
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
The part about he will be a human being knocks Jesus out of the running, because he was made into a God. But the Baha'i concept of a "manifestation" of God still makes Jesus and Baha'u'llah more than human. So, who's right? Naturally, each religion thinks it is the one that's right.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
That's because you see different religions separate from each other. Baha'is don't see them the way most people see. For a Bahai same God who revealed Torah or Gospel, later also revealed the Quran, and whatever spoken from the mouth of Muhammad and the Infallible Imams.
We just see them as different chapters of the Book and revelations of God. In the chapter of Islam, it was revealed the Qaim will be imprisoned. This is one meaning of progressive revelations. It is not like all chapters of the Books and revelations are supposed to say the same thing over and over again. But the news about future or foretelling of future by the Prophets have a wisdom.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, the details of the birth aren't important?
But... when we talk about "intent", I think there is a very good chance that the "intent" of the two gospel writers that had the birth stories was to make Jesus "special"... To make him the son of God. They weren't eyewitnesses. The stories contradict each other. And, I think, they could easily have been based on legends and traditions about the birth of Jesus. Now... where did Muhammad get his version of the story? From God or non-canonical birth stories about Jesus?
For me, I'm good with the virgin birth being myth and legend. So, for Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith to say it is true is a problem.... Plus the fact that the two gospels and the story in the Quran are all different. But the intent was similar... Get people to believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Those are based on literal interpretations of Holy Books.
No, the promised one is not a political leader in our view.
Those prophecies are about spiritual power. Not a worldy power.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The religions are different, and their scriptures contradict each other. And the Qaim is imprisoned in the Hadith but not in the Quran? So, where did this Hadith come from? And you are confident that it is the accurate, infallible truth? Even though it wasn't in the Quran?
The spiritual details are important. The sundry explanations allow for a vision that enables us to implement the spiritual aspects into our own lives.
Thus knowing Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, not in the way we are born, as a human spirit, also enables us to understand why we need to be born again.
The Human Spirit needs to acquire the attributes of the Holy Spirit to be resurrected from a state of death, to a state of everlasting life. That requires Faith, which is the Spirt that enables us to make that connection.
Much like the scene in Avatar, when they connect their hair to the tree of life.
Us born of the human spirit, uses the spirit of faith to tap into the holy spirit, which then lights our path through all the worlds of God.
Without that connection, we enter the next world like a rock in this world, that has no vision or capacity of understanding, with outer choices, we have deprived ourselves of the light of further understandings, this is the hell talked about in Scriptures.
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It is in the Quran too, but it is not something obvious to most people.
Because Muhammad said [some verses of] Quran have seven layers of meaning.
The Infallible Imams have said, at the surface level the Surrah of Joseph is apparently about Prophet Joseph, but at the deeper level, the story of Joseph, is really the story of the Qaim.
And the evidence of it is in the beginning of the Surrah of Joseph, where it says, there are signs in this Surrah...
Remember, Jesus said, the story of Jonah is really the story of Jesus. (No sign except sign of Jonah). Jonah was in the belly of fish for three days, and Jesus was dead for three days. Both mean the same, because both of them mean, the cause of God was dead for three days.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
All I know is it says this at the bottom of what I quoted.
And then it says this supposedly from the UHJ.
Like I said, he's your guy. But it sounds like the UHJ wants you to believe what he says. However, we all know that Baha'is don't take lots of things in the NT and Bible literally. Baha'is make whatever they want into a fictional, symbolic story. The greatest example of this is the resurrection of Jesus. Believe it. Don't believe it. But to say it was meant to be symbolic? That the "body" of Christ in the resurrection story was meant to be seen as the "body" of believers? No, Baha'is do whatever it takes to the Bible to make it conform to Baha'i beliefs. Which is okay... if you're a Baha'i. But who else is going to believe it?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'll go with invention. Six different things that begin and end at different times are all made to begin with the Hegira in 621AD and end in 1844. Which is year 1260 in the Islamic calendar, but all six things? That's some creative interpreting to make that work. And is it The Christ that returns in 1844? No, it is a man that the Baha'is call a manifestation, but they also say he is the forerunner to the main manifestation that is to come. And he doesn't reveal himself until 1863. And, as far as I know, I've only heard one manipulated prophecies that is made to end in 1863. This one...
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.
Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
My problems with this is that all the other prophesies the Baha'is start with the Hegira. This one, though, they go back a few years, then make it lunar years. Which is consistent with what Baha'is do with the 1260 day prophecies, except with the 1335 day prophecy Baha'is make that one solar years. So, for me, that's kind of showing that Baha'is have to manipulate things to make them get to the desired date.The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.
Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
Just take one book, the book of Revelation. It has details before and after the promised Christ returns. Where in it do you find Christ returning and getting rejected and imprisoned? He's not rejected by the kings he conquers the kings. He's not imprisoned. He has Satan imprisoned.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It is strange. Maybe there is a miscommunication here.
What I said is, the letters on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, is not as authoritative as letters written by himself, because these letters are not exactly his own words and style of writing.
If you showed a letter written by Shoghi Effendi, or a paragraph in a book written by shoghi effendi, saying that, Bible is wrong on saying Issac was to be sacrificed, then you made your point. But as far as I know there is no such a thing. A letter written on behalf of Guardian does not prove that, this is the Bahai position on Bible.
Remember, Baha'u'llah wrote, the Bible has not become corrupted.