Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[InvestigateTruth]

Were they suited for any age? Stoning, sacrificing animals? Really? That's from God? Is it better with the Baha'i laws? Tattooing a thief and burning an arsonist?

And I think for sure people invented things. Going from God's "true" message to human sacrifice? Yeah, I don't think the Aztecs ever had a "true" message. I think they invented their whole religion.

If it is in Torah, then in Bahai view it was from God.
At the end, it is upto God. I do not have problem believing God had severe Laws.

 

[ppp]

Oh, now you think you're smarter than God? Hmmm? Things are pretty sucking here. You know what... let's hear your ideas. Maybe God surrounded himself with "yes" men, and no one ever told him that his plan sucked.

Well, yeah. Certainly. Communicate directly. Don't move in mysterious ways. Provide a moral system that is actually moral rather than moral codes, some of which are immoral. Cut back on the hyperbolic reactions. Don't blame your creations for making immoral decisions before giving them the capacity to make immoral decisions. Take some freaking responsibility your own screwup. Blood sacrifice, seriously?!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The United States a leader of peace? We almost had a civil war over the last election.

From an outsider looking at America, there is no doubt the Prophecies about America are unfolding.

America has indeed been the voice of peace amongst the Nations, rallying all to become united.

Of course there is hiccups, as we are still in a time of transition, with Nations still ruled by tyrants.

When you have trad all the Prophecies about America, and watch them unfold, it has been amazing to watch, it is clear that God plan does unfold, no matter our choices.

Things like covid-19 are not a coincidence, they are a symptom of a collapsing old world order. The increasing climatic catastrophes is also a sign of the waywardness of humanity, still refusing to heed the councils of the Most High.

Have a read of this link

https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullah-on-americas-spiritual-destiny/

Here is an extract

"...The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, also authenticated and translated several Baha’i scriptures, among them this reported statement by Baha’u’llah on the spiritual destiny of America:

To this initial impulse given by the Herald of our Faith, whilst confined in the heart of faraway Asia, a still greater force was communicated, and a more specific direction given, when the Author of our Faith [Baha’u’llah] Himself, having already set foot on the fringes of the continent of Europe, addressed, in His [Most Holy Book], from behind the walls of the prison-city of Akka, some of the most celebrated passages of that Book to the Chief Magistrates of the entire American continent, bidding them “bind with the hands of justice the broken,” and “crush the oppressor” with the “rod of the commandments” of their Lord. Unlike the kings of the earth whom He had so boldly condemned in that same Book, unlike the European Sovereigns whom He had either rebuked, warned or denounced, such as the French Emperor, the most powerful monarch of his time; the Conqueror of that monarch; the Heir of the Holy Roman Empire; and the Caliph of Islam; the Rulers of America were not only spared the ominous and emphatic warnings which He uttered against the crowned heads of the world, but were called upon to bring their corrective and healing influence to bear upon the injustices perpetrated by the tyrannical and the ungodly.

To this remarkable pronouncement, conferring such distinction upon the sovereign rulers of the Western Hemisphere, must be added not only the passages in which the Author of our Faith clearly foreshadows the revelation of the “signs of His dominion” in the West, but also the no less significant verbal affirmations which, according to reliable eyewitnesses, He more than once made in regard to the glorious destiny which America was to attain in the days to come. – Shoghi Effendi, “Shoghi Effendi, ”A God-Given Mandate” (15 June 1946), Messages to America, p. 91; and This Decisive Hour: Messages from Shoghi Effendi to the North American Baha’is, 1932–1946, paragraph 158.3.

There are hundreds of Prophecies a out America CG, they give an amazing view of what is unfolding.

The issue is, not many, that are not Baha’i, have read them, so how can they see that picture?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Right. Torah also prophecies of Lord of Hosts, who comes at the End Time.
There is injustice before the Promised One, but also, a destruction that comes with it, as Daniel said.

Okay, which verses are you referring to and let's see what they say.

 

[CG Didymus]

There could be allusions to that to that in Hinduism. We have to read scriptures completely. But they are not explicit.

Which Hindu texts do Baha'is believe to be authoritative? I've got the feeling it is none of them... except for maybe a few verses.

Here's where Wiki says Kalki is mentioned...

The mention of Kalki in the Mahabharat occurs only once, over the verses 3.188.85–3.189.6. The Kalki incarnation is found in the Maha-Puranas such as Vishnu Purana, Matsya Purana, and Bhagavata Purana. However, the details relating the Kalki mythologies are divergent between the Epic and the Puranas, as well as within the Puranas.​

 

[CG Didymus]

What other Book could he mean is sealed if it is not Book of God?

So, is that the official Baha'i believe that because in one place in Daniel it says this book is sealed it means the whole Hebrew Bible plus the Christian New Testament? Then why not the Quran too, if it took The Bab and Baha'u'llah to unseal them?

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 “As for you, go your way till the end.
​

Here's another quote from Daniel 11 about the daily sacrifice and abomination, a king from the North, a king from the South, and in verse 40 says this is at the time of the end...

28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his own country.

29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him...

39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cu****es in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
​

Okay, it's unsealed... What does all this mean?

​

 

[CG Didymus]

Creation is in stages.
We were once in the world of womb. Then we came to this world, and after here we live in other worlds. Each world have its own purpose.

What does the "womb" world have to do with what I was asking? The "womb" world is only a Baha'i analogy about growing the things we will need in this world, just like we need to grow our "spiritual" things we need in the next world.

In case you forgot...

That is assuming the Baha'i definition of God is correct. Some religions believe in reincarnation, some in a resurrection. So, in other religions, God did have a different plan. Why is the Baha'i Faith the one that is true? Baha'is have to come up with explanations and interpretation that make the other religions correct in some things and false in others.

Then... if this spiritual world is better, then why did God make this one worse? Only to test people? But how aware are people of their soul? I'm sure some people only know their physical selves. They don't believe or have any concept of a soul. They make their decisions, right or wrong, by their physical needs. Then what? God is going to punish that soul of the human? Why? What did the soul do? It was a captive in a human body that had a brain that didn't believe in spiritual things. Unless you think the person's soul didn't believe?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, yeah. Certainly. Communicate directly. Don't move in mysterious ways. Provide a moral system that is actually moral rather than moral codes, some of which are immoral. Cut back on the hyperbolic reactions. Don't blame your creations for making immoral decisions before giving them the capacity to make immoral decisions. Take some freaking responsibility your own screwup. Blood sacrifice, seriously?!

Unfortunately, Baha'is are "yes" men and women for whatever Baha'u'llah says about God and the way things are. So, without even listening or caring about your suggestions, Baha'i will write them off. And I hope it's not coming, but how many times have we heard it, "What? You know better than God?" As if all the "Gods" that have supposedly guided people through the ages have never been wrong.

 

[ppp]

Unfortunately, Baha'is are "yes" men and women for whatever Baha'u'llah says about God and the way things are. So, without even listening or caring about your suggestions, Baha'i will write them off. And I hope it's not coming, but how many times have we heard it, "What? You know better than God?" As if all the "Gods" that have supposedly guided people through the ages have never been wrong.

At least the pre-monotheistic religions admit it that their gods screwed things up from time to time.

 

[CG Didymus]

Things like covid-19 are not a coincidence, they are a symptom of a collapsing old world order. The increasing climatic catastrophes is also a sign of the waywardness of humanity

First is Shoghi Effendi an infallible prophet? Next, during the most great peace there will be no more pandemics and climate disasters? Then... is the widening gap between the right and left in America prophesied?

 

[CG Didymus]

At least the pre-monotheistic religions admit it that their gods screwed things up from time to time.

Yeah, it's a scary thing when an infallible, inerrant God, that no one can see, says things to an infallible, inerrant man that claims to be speaking for God says things. What are his people going to do but obey his commands? And in the past that included things like killing all the woman and children in the enemy's city. I wonder if anyone asked, "Are you sure you heard God correctly?" Or, like with the Polynesians, nobody ever asked, "Isn't there something better we can do with the virgins, other than throw them into the volcano?"

 

[ppp]

there may be things in Bahaullah's writings, that may not be possible to prove it to be true or false.
For example, Baha'u'llah says, there is a spiritual life after death. He says, once our body dies, our soul continues to live on.

We do not have a way to know if this happens or not. So, we cannot prove or disprove it directly.

Then we don't need to consider it.

Because in many of His writings, He makes a reference to historical events in details, and Religius traditions as recorded in other religions. He makes detail references. Perhaps in the Book of Iqan, He makes reference to some hundreds of such references, many of them are alusions. It is possible to see if His references are correct. Remember He said all those from His mind, without having any books in front of Him to check or copy from. So, He could have made mistakes possibly if He is not really a Manifestation of God.
This is only in one Book, that He refers to some hundreds references.
He has 17000 works, which in almost all of them He makes references to other things.

I have no way to confirm what he did or did not know.

"Consider the differences that have arisen since the days of Adam. The divers and widely-known languages now spoken by the peoples of the earth were originally unknown, as were the varied rules and customs now prevailing amongst them. The people of those times spoke a language different from those now known. Diversities of language arose in a later age, in a land known as Babel. It was given the name Babel, because the term signifieth “the place where the confusion of tongues arose.”

But none of this is true.

Moreover, let's get back to my first example, regarding life after death. Although there is no way we can know if there is life after death, but still we can assess Baha'u'llah on this to see if what He says is reconcilable with scriptures of other Religions.

I think you're overstating with the reconcilable part. It's it's reconcilable with the bahai reinterpretations of other scriptures. But I don't think that originators of the scriptures with agree with you.
Second, and perhaps far more importantly, reconciling with other religious scriptures is neat, but not particularly interesting. I'm interested in whether or not a claim reconciles with observable reality. Whether it can be demonstrated to be true in observable reality.

 

[ppp]

Yeah, it's a scary thing when an infallible, inerrant God, that no one can see, says things to an infallible, inerrant man that claims to be speaking for God says things. What are his people going to do but obey his commands? And in the past that included things like killing all the woman and children in the enemy's city. I wonder if anyone asked, "Are you sure you heard God correctly?" Or, like with the Polynesians, nobody ever asked, "Isn't there something better we can do with the virgins, other than throw them into the volcano?"

And somehow, a god is never more mature or forward thinking than his adherents. Most gods are 14-year-old drama queens with knives and erections. A frightening combination.

 

[CG Didymus]

From an outsider looking at America, there is no doubt the Prophecies about America are unfolding.

America has indeed been the voice of peace amongst the Nations, rallying all to become united.

Of course there is hiccups, as we are still in a time of transition, with Nations still ruled by tyrants.

When you have trad all the Prophecies about America, and watch them unfold, it has been amazing to watch, it is clear that God plan does unfold, no matter our choices.

Things like covid-19 are not a coincidence, they are a symptom of a collapsing old world order. The increasing climatic catastrophes is also a sign of the waywardness of humanity, still refusing to heed the councils of the Most High.

Have a read of this link

https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullah-on-americas-spiritual-destiny/

Here is an extract

"...The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, also authenticated and translated several Baha’i scriptures, among them this reported statement by Baha’u’llah on the spiritual destiny of America:

To this initial impulse given by the Herald of our Faith, whilst confined in the heart of faraway Asia, a still greater force was communicated, and a more specific direction given, when the Author of our Faith [Baha’u’llah] Himself, having already set foot on the fringes of the continent of Europe, addressed, in His [Most Holy Book], from behind the walls of the prison-city of Akka, some of the most celebrated passages of that Book to the Chief Magistrates of the entire American continent, bidding them “bind with the hands of justice the broken,” and “crush the oppressor” with the “rod of the commandments” of their Lord. Unlike the kings of the earth whom He had so boldly condemned in that same Book, unlike the European Sovereigns whom He had either rebuked, warned or denounced, such as the French Emperor, the most powerful monarch of his time; the Conqueror of that monarch; the Heir of the Holy Roman Empire; and the Caliph of Islam; the Rulers of America were not only spared the ominous and emphatic warnings which He uttered against the crowned heads of the world, but were called upon to bring their corrective and healing influence to bear upon the injustices perpetrated by the tyrannical and the ungodly.

To this remarkable pronouncement, conferring such distinction upon the sovereign rulers of the Western Hemisphere, must be added not only the passages in which the Author of our Faith clearly foreshadows the revelation of the “signs of His dominion” in the West, but also the no less significant verbal affirmations which, according to reliable eyewitnesses, He more than once made in regard to the glorious destiny which America was to attain in the days to come. – Shoghi Effendi, “Shoghi Effendi, ”A God-Given Mandate” (15 June 1946), Messages to America, p. 91; and This Decisive Hour: Messages from Shoghi Effendi to the North American Baha’is, 1932–1946, paragraph 158.3.

There are hundreds of Prophecies a out America CG, they give an amazing view of what is unfolding.

The issue is, not many, that are not Baha’i, have read them, so how can they see that picture?

Regards Tony

Wait a minute that was in the late 1800's? What was so great about America? We had greedy tycoons. Workers had terrible pay, working conditions, then got bombed and shot for trying to organize. Then they got organized and they had corrupt union bosses. We had prohibition and gangsters. We had Wall Street corporate greed. We had segregation and still have lots of racial problems. We got drugs and street gangs. Politics? Forget about it. We don't have it together. But thanks for thinking we do.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you're overstating with the reconcilable part. It's it's reconcilable with the bahai reinterpretations of other scriptures. But I don't think that originators of the scriptures with agree with you.
Second, and perhaps far more importantly, reconciling with other religious scriptures is neat, but not particularly interesting. I'm interested in whether or not a claim reconciles with observable reality. Whether it can be demonstrated to be true in observable reality.

Yes, every religion has their take on the afterlife. In a discussion about that, one guy was talking about the 72 virgins that were promised. Another, very wise old friend said, "72 virgins? Heck, I'd settle for one dirty old Ho!" He died a few years back. I hope God rewarded him.

Then there's this. I'm glad you found the post. Consider the differences that have arisen? As if Adam is real? As if the Tower of Babel is real? Come on Baha'is. This is just as superstitious as any other religion.

"Consider the differences that have arisen since the days of Adam. The divers and widely-known languages now spoken by the peoples of the earth were originally unknown, as were the varied rules and customs now prevailing amongst them. The people of those times spoke a language different from those now known. Diversities of language arose in a later age, in a land known as Babel. It was given the name Babel, because the term signifieth “the place where the confusion of tongues arose.”
Subsequently Syriac became prominent among the existing languages. The Sacred Scriptures of former times were revealed in that tongue. Later, Abraham, the Friend of God, appeared and shed upon the world the light of Divine Revelation. The language He spoke while He crossed the Jordan became known as Hebrew (Ibrání), which meaneth “the language of the crossing.” The Books of God and the Sacred Scriptures were then revealed in that tongue, and not until after a considerable lapse of time did Arabic become the language of Revelation…."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

First is Shoghi Effendi an infallible prophet?

All the Writings of Shoghi Effendi are official scripture under the Covenant of Baha’u’llah.

Thus they are authentic and binding.

Next, during the most great peace there will be no more pandemics and climate disasters?

Abdul'baha has said that Spiritual capacity is in tune with this material existence. Our spiritual health has repercussions in the material world.

There will still be natural disasters, the world is also living and growing. We have to he smarter where and how we build.

Then... is the widening gap between the right and left in America prophesied?

Yes it is. Race relations was the cornerstone, not addressing that issue is a warning given, as is the movement of the left growing a lot stronger.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wait a minute that was in the late 1800's? What was so great about America? We had greedy tycoons. Workers had terrible pay, working conditions, then got bombed and shot for trying to organize. Then they got organized and they had corrupt union bosses. We had prohibition and gangsters. We had Wall Street corporate greed. We had segregation and still have lots of racial problems. We got drugs and street gangs. Politics? Forget about it. We don't have it together. But thanks for thinking we do.

It was about the destiny of America CG, please read the material offered, so we do not keep having these corrections. The signs of what America can become are apparent.

We have gone over and over this, I might have only read this stuff a few times each, but it is not saying anything like you offered in return.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's from a Jewish site...

Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
​

Interesting that they have mashiach setting up a world government in Israel. However, the suffering and war are before he comes. Then what? He makes the changes happen. He wins battle for Israel. He is not thrown in prison. And, most important, they say that he will be a normal human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. Baha'is say a "manifestation" is a special creation. Close on some things. But nowhere near on others.

When men have their expectations they remain unfulfilled.

See if you can name one time in history when a Messenger, or Prophet gained widespread acceptance from the people they appeared amongst.

So there are answers to those prophecies that built the expectations, but they need to be seen in a new light of understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, is that the official Baha'i believe that because in one place in Daniel it says this book is sealed it means the whole Hebrew Bible plus the Christian New Testament? Then why not the Quran too, if it took The Bab and Baha'u'llah to unseal them?

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 “As for you, go your way till the end.
​

Here's another quote from Daniel 11 about the daily sacrifice and abomination, a king from the North, a king from the South, and in verse 40 says this is at the time of the end...

28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his own country.

29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him...

39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cu****es in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
​

Okay, it's unsealed... What does all this mean?

​

Sure, the Quran too. Book of God was sealed, meaning, all Books, including whatever Krishna said also.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay, which verses are you referring to and let's see what they say.

"David, in his Psalms, had predicted: “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of Glory shall come in. Who is this King of Glory? The Lord of Hosts, He is the King of Glory.”"
Shoghi Effendi