Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[Sheldon]

I am saying it is inaccurate scripture. Moses did not write it, fallible men wrote it.
God does not have a face so God cannot speak to anyone face to face.
It is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, aside from God becoming a man.

You have repeatedly claimed the bible is true, now you're just randomly and subjectively jettisoning the bits that don't match your beliefs?

So it can mean literally anything really, what a waste of omniscience though? I mean a few old men could have got together in say AD 325 roughly, and cobbled it together from random stories and texts, from well after the fact, and then just made up the rest.

 

[Sheldon]

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.

So if I claim to have three heads, and ten arms, and you just read it, you'd consider that to be evidence that I have have three heads, and ten arms? And you don't see a problem there? That explains a lot actually.

 

[rational experiences]

All have man beliefs today are based on how human consciousness perceives it's own human being.

Interfered with claiming now I own two minds.

One mind helping my other one mind evil.

AI subliminal is just interference by mass of atmosphere existing with no space in our heavens ever and living just thinking.

Man theist the original liar theoried about reactions that occurred historic on the body of earth inside our heavens. Dangerous. No machine then.

Lied.

First position of his machines scientific thesis. Is our destroyer. The scientist. In other words a machines reaction won't keep life safe from reactions number one position on the ground inside our heavens.

As the designer the scientist mind first convinced his brothers to take over family. Threaten or murder them to build his controlled life. Cities of his means to give him status.

As a young man no longer honoured tribal elders hierarchy.

Just a human who today should be picking food eating drinking like the rest of us. And not be rich. Liars. Look at your history you liar.

Brother hence first stated the idea as one self talked to brother who agreed. Two minds rational first agreed to do evil and was not interfered with first.

No human chosen science yet.

By exact thinker the head who thought it as men.

So brother talks to himself constantly the theist. Why one man is always by hierarchy the scientist man who knew. Demonstrated by his own man self.

So scientists identify self in science and by thesis one hierarchical just a man leader. The false God scenario in his head.

How you became a double thinking egotist.

Consciousness so interfered with today you don't recognise your own mind brother anymore.

In his thinking he says me myself and I.

Two of my own self own one. How self possessed you are.

Why in life ignoring every other living presence your claim father son holy Ghost is everything.

So have you realised yet you are self possessed or does father have to keep dying as a man unnaturally to update your man's advice?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is there Hindu Scriptures that have Gods appearing? Or where an incarnation, like Krishna, transforms in his spirit form? And what about wives of Gods? What do they do? In the stories, do they have children?

Parashurama, Rama and Krishna were born the normal human way, by sex between their parents, and as promised to their parents. The Pandavas also were born in the normal human way, by sex between Gods and the wives of an incapable Pandu, Kunti and Madri. Kunti was Krishna's aunt (sister of his father, Vasudeva). There are sages who were created directly just by the will of God, but that did not involve any woman; the primordial sages, four Sanat kumaras, Narada (who refused to procreate) and the first seven sages of the eon (who did so).
The Sun God in most texts, fathered the death god Yama, the river-goddess Yami, the current Manu (first human of the eon), the divine twin physicians Ashvins and the god Revanta through his wife Saranyu; and Shani (Saturn) through his wife, Chhaya.
No transformation in spirit form to impregnate virgins.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I know what you are talking about, I just disagree with you as to what is a valid prophecy.

Do you think that a prophecy can be valid if it is something that is probably going to happen anyway?

Do you think that a prophecy can be valid if it was not written until AFTER the events that allegedly fulfilled it?

Do you think that a prophecy can be valid if it there is no evidence that the fulfilling event actually happened?

Do you think that a prophecy can be valid if it is fulfilled only because someone decided to do what was required to fulfill it?

Do you think that a prophecy can be valid if it is so vague it could mean anything?

This is YOUR conversation with yourself, not with me, as I have no interest in it.

Funny, you keep reply to my posts...

I never said that you claimed that Baha'u'llah was not divinely inspired, therefore he never made any valid prophecies so that is a strawman.

Ah, so when you said, "AGAIN, I am not trying to use the prophecy to prove about Baha'u'llah was divinely inspired," in post 380, you just brought that up because... Why? Why would you even mention that unless you thought I was making the argument. Once again, you are misrepresenting my position (by trying to make it look like I am debating whether Mr B was divinely inspired), or you are wasting my time by posting irrelevant stuff.

I already told you I do not want to discuss how you believe we can tell if a prophecy is valid. That is your ball game, not mine. You think that the validity of a prophecy must be ascertained according to your criteria before we can claim it has been fulfilled but I disagree and I have no interest in arguing with you.

How can we discuss the fulfillment of a prophecy when we have not shown that it's a valid prophecy to begin with?

I do not care what you claim. That is your ball game not mine, and I am not playing the game with you.
Do you understand plain English? If you want to talk about this since that is not the reason I started this thread.

Excuse me, I never made any claims.

No, it will only be fulfilled by political action and historical events that are actually taking place now and into the future.

And what part of the prophecy states this?

 

[Tiberius]

Nobody has ever seen God at any time. The New Testament cleared up many of the misunderstandings people had about God because of al the anthropomorphism that are in the Old Testament.
It is called the NEW Testament because it is NEW. Newer scriptures always clear up misunderstandings from older scriptures

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Source: 16 Bible verses about Not Seeing God

You are quite a hypocrite to try to use a Bible you do not even believe is true to prove your point.

You do not even believe that God exists and you keep beating this into the ground just to try to prove you are right and I am wrong. Any blind person can see that is what you are doing.

Congratulations, you've shown that there are passages in the Bible which are contradictory.

Why should we take your interpretation of which Bible passages are the correct ones over mine?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why not Baha'u'llah too then? The Bab is hardly mentioned by Baha'is.

Maybe Baha'u'llah too. But i was thinking Baha'u'llah was not Martyred. The Bab and Jesus did.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I never said that you claimed that Baha'u'llah was not divinely inspired, therefore he never made any valid prophecies so that is a strawman.

That is absolutely funny and a white lie. Did not Bahaollah say that no new manifestation will appear before the passage of a thousand years? How conveniently you lie, Trailblazer!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Still, was it right for Elijah to mock the prophets of Baal? And I think the test that Elijah used was a very good way to see if a God is real or not. Why don't God believers use it today?

That test is for when there is a Prophet among people. Right now we do not.

 

[CG Didymus]

Parashurama, Rama and Krishna were born the normal human way, by sex between their parents, and as promised to their parents. The Pandavas also were born in the normal human way, by sex between Gods and the wives of an incapable Pandu, Kunti and Madri. Kunti was Krishna's aunt (sister of his father, Vasudeva). There are sages who were created directly just by the will of God, but that did not involve any woman; the primordial sages, four Sanat kumaras, Narada (who refused to procreate) and the first seven sages of the eon (who did so).
The Sun God in most texts, fathered the death god Yama, the river-goddess Yami, the current Manu (first human of the eon), the divine twin physicians Ashvins and the god Revanta through his wife Saranyu; and Shani (Saturn) through his wife, Chhaya.
No transformation in spirit form to impregnate virgins.

Thanks, and of course I'm fine with it all being religious myth. Which is one of things I disagree with Baha'is on. As you know, with the Bible, they make any story that has been written as if it was a historical event into a fictional symbolic story. I'm sure they'd do that with Hindu Scriptures also. What I don't like about that is that they can and do make any Scripture say what they want it to say. Like with prophecies about Kalki and Maitreya. They find ways to interpret them to point to The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Tiberius]

Here's a well-known "prophecy" This is from a book written by Bill Sears, who became a "Hand of the Cause" in the Baha'is Faith.

The Book of Revelation prophesied: 1. “… and, lo, there was a great earthquake.”1 This was the first sign that was to appear. 2. “… and the sun became black as sack-cloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;”2 This was to be the second sign. 3. “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”3 This was the third sign that was to appear. This was the final promise, and would be seen just before the coming of the Messiah in the last days....

I came across the account of one millennial scholar who made a study of the historical events leading up to the 1840 period. When he had completed his search, he made the following statement: “As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.”1 These events which he listed were as follows: 1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 2. The Dark Day, 1780. 3. The Falling Stars, 1833...

Many Biblical scholars pointed to the exact fulfilment, and in the proper order of the prophecies concerning the heavens and the signs of the coming of Christ as given in the sixth chapter of Revelation: 1. The appearance of the great earthquake in 1755. 2. The sun darkened and the moon turned into blood on the Dark Day of 1780. 3. The stars falling from the heavens in 1833. In this same chapter it is foreseen that the Messiah shall come and topple the kings from their thrones, for the great day of the Lord will have come. Christ said: “… and the stars shall fall from heaven …. And then … shall they see the Son of man coming …”​

Sounds pretty good. Except the earthquake was 90 years before The Bab declared himself in 1844 and was in Portugal. The dark day and the stars falling were a smoky day and a meteor shower in North America and both were years before 1844. Why would they be "signs" of someone announcing he is God's messenger in Persia years later? Of course, Baha'is have no problem with it.

Sounds to me that this is describing an earthquake, a solar eclipse, a lunar eclipse, a meteor shower, and strong winds. All things that happen with quite a bit of regularity.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe Baha'u'llah too. But i was thinking Baha'u'llah was not Martyred. The Bab and Jesus did.

Here's Revelation again...

21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God...
9 “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
​

Because in one verse it about the 12 apostles, that makes it sound like the Lamb is Jesus.
Then it says God, himself, and the Lamb are its temple. Why would that be The Bab and either Jesus or Baha'u'llah?
But then it says that the "Glory" of God and the Lamb are its lamp? So, do Baha'i take that as a literal reference of Baha'u'llah? And that the Lamb is The Bab?

 

[CG Didymus]

That test is for when there is a Prophet among people. Right now we do not.

And I don't take that story as having really happened. And I'd imagine Baha'is don't either.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I don't like about that is that they can and do make any Scripture say what they want it to say. Like with prophecies about Kalki and Maitreya. They find ways to interpret them to point to The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

CG, I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in Gods, mythical stories and prophecies. I believe in the academic or the wisdom part of scriptures. For example 3000 years ago, some one saying that there is a relation between existence and non existence, or that Gods were later than the creation; or some book saying 2000 years ago that vegetation is alive.

I do not believe in eons (yugas) and Kalki being born at the end of the current yuga. Kalki is mentioned in two or three books, The part in Bhavishya purana is clearly false. It also mentions Queen Victoria. That is a very recent addition in a very old book. The interpolations can be easily found out. The saving grace is that Kalki is ptedicted to come 425,000 years from now and not immediately.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sounds to me that this is describing an earthquake, a solar eclipse, a lunar eclipse, a meteor shower, and strong winds. All things that happen with quite a bit of regularity.

Which goes to show if a person wants to pretend that his prophet fulfilled some vague Bible prophecies, he can find some way to do it.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in Gods, mythical stories and prophecies. I believe in the academic or the wisdom part of scriptures. For example 3000 years ago, some one saying that there is a relation between existence and non existence, or that Gods were later than the creation; or some book saying 2000 years ago that vegetation is alive.

I do not believe in eons (yugas) and Kalki being born at the end of the current yuga. Kalki is mentioned in two or three books, The part in Bhavishya purana is clearly false. It also mentions Queen Victoria. That is a very recent addition in a very old book. The interpolations can be easily found out. The saving grace is that Kalki is ptedicted to come 425,000 years from now and not immediately.

Here's what I found...

Baha'i scholars have demonstrated that the prophecies in the Manu Srmiti and other books indicate the exact date of the end of the kalki Yuga and the coming of the Kalki Avatar. This date, 1844, is also the year of the beginning of the Baha'i Faith.

So, in order for Baha’u’llah to be the messianic fulfillment of the Kalki prophecies, we need to radically reinterpret the prophecies themselves so as to spiritualize them.
​

"Radically" reinterpret? And the Baha'is do. As if these prophecies are for real. But just in case, they reinterpret them to make them fit anyway.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here's Revelation again...

21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God...
9 “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
​

Because in one verse it about the 12 apostles, that makes it sound like the Lamb is Jesus.
Then it says God, himself, and the Lamb are its temple. Why would that be The Bab and either Jesus or Baha'u'llah?
But then it says that the "Glory" of God and the Lamb are its lamp? So, do Baha'i take that as a literal reference of Baha'u'llah? And that the Lamb is The Bab?

We may not have an official interpretation of the whole passage you quoted, but we have many parts of this passage.

The prophecy mentions:

"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple"

I see this parallel with what Baha'u'llah wrote:

"Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay?"
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 96-138


These are related to prophecies about rebuilding the Temple for Jews. Revelation is saying that, in the End, there wont be a physical temple as Jews expect but, rather a Manifestation of God, Himself is that Temple.


Regarding the rest of Revelation 21, Abdulbaha said the Bride represents the New Revelation and also the new Jerusalem, represents the new Laws of God.
Baha'u'llah called Religion of God "City". This city has 12 foundations. It is said Bahai Faith has 12 foundational teachings.
I dont have an official interpretation of the part "It has name of twelve apostles of Lamb".
The Glory of God, represents the light that shines within the lamp, and the Lamb is Lamp. To me, the Glory of God, is the spiritual reality of the Manifestation of God, and the Lamp is the physical body. The spirit is within the Body, as the light is within the lamp. So, yes, from a Bahai perspective this could be Baha'u'llah. But the Glory of God, is spiritual reality of Baha'u'llah and the Lamb is the physical body.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And I don't take that story as having really happened. And I'd imagine Baha'is don't either.

Correct. I wouldn't take that story literally true.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'i scholars have ..

I am not surprised. Bahais are great twisters. They will twist anything that they come across to that uneducated 19th Century Iranian.

 

[F1fan]

If we had witnessed a miracle that would be proof of something supernatural. Baha'u'llah performed miracles but He never offered them as proof of who He was. Also, miracles are only proof to those people who actually witnessed them. Others can only read about them.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah received communication from God, but what constitutes evidence for one person will not necessarily constitute evidence for another person.

As has been explained, this is all weak, religious evidence. No one believes this is evidence of a God UNLESS they already want to believe it.