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Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
And can we find verses that disagree with what Baha'is like? Yes, we can. And what do Baha'is do with those verses? They say the NT wasn't written by Jesus

That is not the Baha'i view. We turn to the Writings to find out about the Bible.

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

The guidance is that we can not know if it is word for word accurate, but that does not matter, it is a sure spiritual guide.

Baha'u'llah made it clear in the Kitab-i-iqan that God left the Bible as a sure spiritual guide. That was the advice Baha'u'llah offered to all Muslims and all peoples of all Faiths.

The Bible is WOW.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes no doubt, a rose bush does not show its beauty until the rose blooms.
"Beauty" is subjective. To someone who likes bare thorny tendrils, a rose in winter is more beautiful.
All you need to do is look at the number of people with flowerless thorny garlands tattooed around their arms or legs (and in case you don't hang out with fans of skin-ink, then yes, they are very popular).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
For example, Book of Iqan is one of the best evidences. One should read it and decide if it is work of divine or work of man. At the end, it is according to a person's judgement. How many people here have read Book of Iqan in depth?
As you made the claim, you can present a passage that could not possibly have been written by a human. It is not our responsibility to find your evidence for you. Basic debating rules!

(Visit my "Quran Challenge" thread. It deals with this very subject)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Persons and Life of Baha'ullah and Abdul'baha is what I submit as objective evidence.

Baha'u'llah has offered that is the greatest proof of God, the person of the Messenger. I also offer Abdul'baha as Baha'u'llah gifted Abdul'baha as a perfect example of that evidence.

So let's use the Lawful terms, as in fact we put them on trail to determine the evidence.

"Objective Versus Subjective Evidence" (In Law)

"The law dictionary defines “objective” evidence as “evidence that is not subject to bias and is quantifiable and able to be independently confirmed and verified by using analytical or other tools.” Simply put, objective evidence is based on facts and is the kind of evidence that can be independently examined, evaluated, and verified.

“Subjective” evidence, on the other hand, is evidence that is in the form of an opinion or self-report that cannot be independently examined, evaluated, or verified, but must be either accepted on faith, or rejected."

Objective Medical Evidence | LawMed-Disability Attorneys, LLP

We can use Abdul'baha as the example as Abdul'baha travelled the World and there is truckloads of Objective evidence recorded about His Character and Life, that can be used to determine if he was indeed trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony
Maybe they were the nicest people the world has ever known, but Baha'is claim that Muhammad and Moses were manifestations. How perfect were their lives? Did they claim to be manifestations? I don't know. You tell me if this is true or not about Muhammad.
Whether or not Muhammed actually killed anyone himself is not known, at least as far as I know. However, he did order many killings, he led many raids on caravans, he led his followers into multiple battles and was, in effect, a general. He was a man of war with much blood on his hands. Probably most infamously, he ordered the execution of more than six hundred Jewish men in Medina for not supporting his leadership in the city.
Now if he's not a manifestation, a supposed perfect reflection of God, then it's not a big deal. He was no different than Joshua leading the Israelites by orders of their God into the promised land and killing even woman and children. So, I question the validity of some of the things they said. Like the Kitab i quan has Noah being 950 years old? I'm sure it's no problem for you. There are perfectly good explanation on what he meant there. But he also said that Ishmael was taken to be sacrificed by Abraham. Then this Hud and Salih are supposed to be real, historical people? All this adds up. I can't believe Baha'u'llah is for real, if I can't believe all of it. And once a person becomes a Baha'i, how do they support believing in some of those things? It all comes down to, "Well, it must be true because Baha'u'llah said so." No, it doesn't. He might be wrong with some of the things he said. And yes, that's a problem. Since Baha'is believe him to be infallible. So, for you, he can't be wrong.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I did not say that God is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
I said the Bible is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
The Bible was not written by God, it was written by fallible men.
And as everything that Bahaullah wrote was, by definition, written by a man, it is therefore fallible and could all be wrong.
Do you disagree? If so, why?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
But the teacher does not have a poor record.
Are you referring to god? The supposedly infallible, omniscient, omnipotent being who still can't produce a message that is clear, unambiguous and understandable by all?
I have read science textbooks that do a better job.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Are you referring to god? The supposedly infallible, omniscient, omnipotent being who still can't produce a message that is clear, unambiguous and understandable by all?
I have read science textbooks that do a better job.
Science textbooks? Hell, I have read more cogent fantasy novels.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The article says that was divisions within the followers of The Bab. But if you want to get nit picky... I'm sure you been told and have a reasonable explanation for all this. Here's what is says about what happened when Baha'u'llah died...
Division amongst the followers of Bahá'u'lláh

The second major division arose amongst the Followers of Bahá'u'lláh was after his death. Mirza Husain Ali (Bahá'u'lláh) expired in May 1892 leaving behind 4 sons and 3 daughters. A severe dispute of successorship erupted among the brothers. The eldest, Abbas Effendi claimed to be the rightful successor in view of the continuation of divine inspirations. However, his brothers Mirza Mohammed Ali, Mirza Badiullah and Mirza Ziaullah and many other Bahá'ís countered that the Divine inspiration ended since "Bahá'u'lláh" had himself written in "Al Aqdas" that anyone who claims thus (Divine inspiration) before the completion of 1,000 years of Bahá'ísm, indeed was a liar and that this claim was false. Nevertheless Abbas Effendi was able to tide over these problems very soon. He assumed the title of "Abdu'l-Bahá" and called his followers as "Sabiteen" (Steadfasters) and followers of his younger brother as "Naqizeen" (Covenant Breakers).

The followers of Mirza Mohammed Ali call themselves as "Unitarian Bahá'ís".

Division amongst the followers of Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi
One of the biggest controversies in Bahá'í history was rapidly fading out of the memory of the mainstream Bahá'í community. But thanks to the internet and its vast repository of free-flowing information and the court case done by the Haifa-based Bahá'í Faith on two of its denomination, the Haifa-based Bahá'í Faith will never be able to cover up what happened in 1957, despite their best efforts to ignore it and minimize its importance. In that year, The Bahá'í Faith lost what was supposed to be its unending chain of infallible spiritual authority when the first Guardian of the faith died without clearly designating any successor.

Bahá'u'lláh had appointed his son Abdul-Baha to succeed him as leader of the religion and inspired interpreter of Bahá'í scriptures and teachings. Abdul-Baha continued this successorship by establishing a position called the Guardian of the Cause of God, to which he appointed his grandson Shoghi Effendi Rabbani in his will and commanded him to appoint his own successor during his lifetime. Shoghi Effendi developed complex theories of a "world order of Bahá'u'lláh" and appointed two main institutions of Bahá'í leadership, the International Bahá'í Council and the Hands of the Cause.

When Shoghi Effendi suddenly died, childless and without leaving any known will, a power struggle ensued. The Hands of the Cause, led by Shoghi Effendis widow Ruhiyyih Khanum, asserted a claim to be some form of temporary collective Guardianship. The Council President, Charles Mason Remey, claimed to be the second Guardian using arguments from the first Guardians writings on Bahá'í religious administration to support his case. The Hands used other arguments from Bahá'í sacred texts to repudiate him, and they ended up convincing a majority of Bahá'ís in the world to follow their own claim of authority rather than Remeys.

In 1963 they established their Universal House of Justice (UHJ) as the international ruling body at the "Bahá'í World Center" in Haifa, despite questions about whether this institution could be legitimately constituted without a Guardian as the head member.

The National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of France, Pakistan, India and a couple of more countries followed the claim of Mason Remey to be the second Guardian. All its members were summarily excommunicated by UHJ. In Reaction Mason Remy ex communicated all the Hands of Cause calling the Wife of Shoghi Effendi as ARCH COVENANT BREAKER

A lot of Bahá'ís simply left the faith in disappointment, realizing that a major leadership dispute ruins the credibility of a religion that prides itself on unity and seeks to rule the world. Among those Bahá'ís who remained committed to their faith, a schism developed, and the minority of Bahá'ís who followed Remey and rejected the "Haifan" UHJ persist to this day. They have had limited success attracting new converts, though the advent of the internet has helped their efforts somewhat in recent years. They are commonly known as Guardianists, emphasizing their belief in the continuation of the living Guardianship as an essential part of Bahá'í Faith. " Most of them currently follow Joel Bray Marangella, who claims to be the third Guardian. Some others follow Guardian-claimant Jacques Soghomonian instead.

The Haifan Bahá'í Faith stigmatizes the Guardianist Bahá'ís as "Covenant-breakers" and demands that all members of their organization should shun them, Then there is a pain of shunning if they refuse to shun. Haifan Bahá'ís can be severely punished just for reading Guardianist literature. Both the Haifans and the Guardianists believe that membership in their group is the only way to be a true Bahá'í; both assert that their leaders are infallible, despite the lack of solid evidence from Bahá'í scripture to support their claim; and both teach that one day the whole world should be governed by a Bahá'í theocracy led by their particular organization, even though their own religion is not unified under one authority.

Can you find any proof these are well supported faiths, or just disgruntled individuals with a website and a handful of tag alongs?

If they are a viable breakaway, that should be easy to find.

Consider Baha'u'llah offered all cut off branches will eventually die and offered the metaphor of how that works.

if you are a gardener, you will know that branches that are hewn from a tree, die at different rates, in regards to the size of the limb removed, and the conditions it is removed in.

Prophecy contains the fact that there will be branches that need to be removed, but the prophecy says they will amount to nothing, thay will never have any lasting influence over the hearts of mankind.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"Beauty" is subjective. To someone who likes bare thorny tendrils, a rose in winter is more beautiful.
All you need to do is look at the number of people with flowerless thorny garlands tattooed around their arms or legs (and in case you don't hang out with fans of skin-ink, then yes, they are very popular).

Yes people get to choose what is Beautiful.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Maybe they were the nicest people the world has ever known, but Baha'is claim that Muhammad and Moses were manifestations. How perfect were their lives? Did they claim to be manifestations? I don't know. You tell me if this is true or not about Muhammad.
Whether or not Muhammed actually killed anyone himself is not known, at least as far as I know. However, he did order many killings, he led many raids on caravans, he led his followers into multiple battles and was, in effect, a general. He was a man of war with much blood on his hands. Probably most infamously, he ordered the execution of more than six hundred Jewish men in Medina for not supporting his leadership in the city.
Now if he's not a manifestation, a supposed perfect reflection of God, then it's not a big deal. He was no different than Joshua leading the Israelites by orders of their God into the promised land and killing even woman and children. So, I question the validity of some of the things they said. Like the Kitab i quan has Noah being 950 years old? I'm sure it's no problem for you. There are perfectly good explanation on what he meant there. But he also said that Ishmael was taken to be sacrificed by Abraham. Then this Hud and Salih are supposed to be real, historical people? All this adds up. I can't believe Baha'u'llah is for real, if I can't believe all of it. And once a person becomes a Baha'i, how do they support believing in some of those things? It all comes down to, "Well, it must be true because Baha'u'llah said so." No, it doesn't. He might be wrong with some of the things he said. And yes, that's a problem. Since Baha'is believe him to be infallible. So, for you, he can't be wrong.

I see we get a chance to make a Judgement on the Bab and Baha'u'llah. We also are gifted by Baha'u'llah His son Abdul'baha, as that perfect example.

Did you know Abdul'baha was the first to recognise the Station of his father Baha'u'llah? That was not long after Baha'u'llah was released from the 'Balck Pit'. Some 9 years before Baha'u'llah declared His Mission to humanity.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible is WOW.
The Bible is also the primary reason why more people have not recognized Baha'u'llah and the Bible is the primary reason there are atheists...
Think about it. ;)

Personally, I think it is time to put the Bible on the shelf because we have a new Revelation from God and as long as people are stuck in the past they will never move forward. That is just logic.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I am not into the blame game. That is your game.
And also god's, by all accounts.

It seems to me that the only reason you are on this forum is to point out other peoples faults and mistakes, since that is all you ever do.

Other people always have to be wrong so you can be right.
Debate is an adversarial process, by definition. If you do not want people to assess and address your claims, then perhaps a debate forum is the wrong environment for you?

It must be tough always having to be right, but you are not always right because you are not God.
As a matter of interest, what makes you think your god is always right? Because he tells you? Because you assume it? Because someone told you?
It can't be an evidential claim because there is nothing about the content of god's pronouncements that suggests he must always be right.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The Bible is also the primary reason why more people have not recognized Baha'u'llah and the Bible is the primary reason there are atheists...
Think about it. ;)

Personally, I think it is time to put the Bible on the shelf because we have a new Revelation from God and as long as people are stuck in the past they will never move forward. That is just logic.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Thank you Susan. I offer that personally I see and offer that the Bible is a sure spiritual guide, in the light of what Abdul'baha offered.

Did we ever hear Abdul'baha offer anything other than what is good about the Bible?

So I see the Bible is not the issue, it is our own views of it that are the cause of division and more importantly how we reflect reflect Bible in our words and our life.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The Writings of Baha'u'llah are 'part' of the evidence that supports His claims.
What constitutes the rest of the "evidence"?

When new people are born they can hear the message of Baha'u'llah so they will know the 'true meaning' of the gospel message and what Christ did to save us.
That is just a bare assertion with nothing to support it. All the evidence contradicts your claim.

No, we have a different interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve. If you want to believe that Christian interpretation you are welcome to it.
You just claimed that Christ had come to save us. Now you are saying his message is false.
As usual, you are contradicting yourself, left, right and centre.

Give it up for lost. No other religion teaches what the Baha'i Faith teaches.
So if an ideology is unique, it necessarily is true? Are you sure?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah made it clear in the Kitab-i-iqan that God left the Bible as a sure spiritual guide. That was the advice Baha'u'llah offered to all Muslims and all peoples of all Faiths.
The Bible was only to be a guide until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 89-90

The Bible is the primary cause of people turning away from both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.
The Word of God has been renewed and It is time to move on.

“…….. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned…

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

From: Tablet of the True Seeker
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
If it is from God, then it must have the answer to all your questions. How could a book be from God, yet, if a sincere person have valid questions such as yours are not answered in the Book, and yet God expects people to believe in it?
So you are seriously claiming that a human can live for 1000 years?
And if your response is "But is was through magic", then you need to show that this magic actually exists. If your response is along he lines of "well Noah lived for 1000 years", we can dismiss your entire position as obvious nonsense.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thank you Susan. I offer that personally I see and offer that the Bible is a sure spiritual guide, in the light of what Abdul'baha offered.

Did we ever hear Abdul'baha offer anything other than what is good about the Bible?
Abdu'l-Baha was not one to criticize anyone or anything....
I do not go by what Abdu'l-Baha said because it s obvious that he was pandering to the Christians.

I go by what Baha'u'llah said and in light of that it is time to move on. Humanity will never move on as long as they cling to the Bible as the only Holy Book that was ever revealed. This is logic 101 stuff.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It often happened that in Baghdad certain Muhammadan ulama [divines], Jewish rabbis and Christians met together with some European scholars, in a blessed reunion
Already doubting this. Sounds too much like "A priest, a rabbi and an imam walk into a bar..."

each one had some question to propose, and although they were possessed of varying degrees of culture, they each heard a sufficient and convincing reply, and retired satisfied.
Obvious bovine faeces. The clerics of religions are never "satisfied" with the dogmatic claims of other religions. No Priest, rabbi or imam worth his salt would simply accept an argument that refuted their own beliefs. This is clearly a fable designed for the faithful.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So I see the Bible is not the issue, it is our own views of it that are the cause of division and more importantly how we reflect reflect Bible in our words and our life.
But those views will always cause division until people recognize Baha'u'llah as the Representative of God among men who unsealed the Book and explained its true meanings.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The Persons and Life of Baha'ullah and Abdul'baha is what I submit as objective evidence.
But to the objective observer they seem like the lives of ordinary people who were trying to present an ideology. History is full of similar examples. There is literally nothing about their lives that suggests they were in contact with a god, for whom no evidence nor rational argument exists.

If that is really the sum total of your "evidence" for the truth of the Baha'i faith, then you have fallen at the first hurdle. (Which we had already established some while past)
 
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