Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Right out of the door, I never ‘claimed’ to be a Messenger of God, so what reason would anyone have to believe that I am a Messenger of God?

The evidence. And I used reason on it. And any argument applied to any evidence is just as good as any other. To say otherwise - to call me wrong - would be arrogant.

Plus, you now have me telling them that you're a messenger of God, albeit an unwitting one - another reason for others to believe that you are a messenger. I'm telling them that you are. Messengers don't have to know that they're messengers. But the evidence says that that's what you are.

So you are saying you think I have an obligation to explain to you why I find the evidence I offered to be evidence of a Messenger of God? How can I explain that?

If you have compelling evidence, you present it, assuming that you are correct and want to be believed. If not, you have no reason to give your argument, but you also have no reason to expect others to believe that you are correct.

If you are an apatheist and don’t think belief in God is important at all you should not care if there is any evidence for God

I am an apatheist in the sense that I have ruled out the existence of an interventionalist God, one that manifests in reality through revelation, miracles, answering prayer, for example. That leaves either a non-interventionalist God like the deist God, who has left the building so to speak, or no gods at all. What I'm saying is that the answer to that question is not only unavailable, but irrelevant. Nothing changes if the answer is yes or no to the existence of such a god.

So, it's not that I don't care of there is evidence for a god, it's that there is none. One doesn't realize that he is apathetic about gods and then start looking for evidence as you suggest. It's the other way around. Having looked for this evidence and having found none, I am convinced that no deity is trying to reach me (no interventionalist God), and I am apathetic about any other kind of deity existing.

you expect God to do what you want Him to do

No. I expect nothing from gods, as I have explained to you several times.

That's one of the consequences of being an atheist, another thing you never seem to assimilate. Why do you keep writing to me as if I believe that their is a god and that I have expectations of it? Have you noticed that I don't project my atheism onto you? I never write as if you believe there is no God. It's a core aspect of who you are in these discussions. How could I ever forget that I am writing to a theist and slip into writing as if you were an atheist?

Yet that is exactly what you do - repeatedly - as you just did. Do you know why that is? Do you know why you keep telling me what I expect a god that I don't believe exists to do?

And yes, much of this post was theater - me mirroring you back to you. I wanted you to see what your position sounds like to others. You're a messenger because of the evidence - all of it - and my interpretation of it and conclusions drawn from it are just as valid as your objection to being confused for a messenger, because we all interpret evidence differently, meaning however we want, all conclusions are equally sound, and those who disagree are arrogant, and you don't want to be that, right?

 

[KWED]

A Messenger asks us to search the claims for our own self and make a decision.

Here is an opportunity to do that.

Mormonism - Wikipedia

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

The Baha'i believe the Mormon claims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Mormons have none.
The Mormon believes the Baha'i aims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Baha'i have none.
I consider both to be nonsense because there is no evidence to support either of their extraordinary claims. Both rely of belief
Which is the more reasonable of those three positions?

 

[Nakosis]

The old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead. Not only the Baha’is but many other people have seen this process unfolding all over the world at an ever-increasing pace but it has become even more apparent now that war has broken out in the Ukraine.

Top stories

Opinion: Putin’s assault on Ukraine will shape a new world order

How Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine Could Change the Global Order Forever

China ponders how Russia’s actions in Ukraine could reshape world order

Bury the Old World Order

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true? In the latter half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah prophesied that what we are seeing now would take place. I believe that humans will build the new world order with the assistance of God and what was revealed by Baha’u’llah.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

The phrase "new world order" in the Baháʼí Faith refers to the replacement of the collective political norms and values of the 19th century with a new system of worldwide governance that incorporates the Baháʼí ideals of unity and justice for all nations, races, creeds, and classes. The idea of world unification, both politically and spiritually, is at the heart of Baháʼí teachings.[1][2]

Baháʼu'lláh taught that the future order will be the embodiment God's scheme for mankind.[3] Later on his successors, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, interpreted "unification of mankind" as the eventual establishment of a world commonwealth, later as a democratic elected world government based on principles of equity and justice.[4]

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order_(Baháʼí)

To me, the world seems more and more divided.
These articles point to a rearrangement of priorities within countries perhaps, but not to one of unity.

 

[KWED]

First for proof to be found of God, there first needs to be the Messengers, as without the Messengers, we have no knowledge of God, we have a capacity, that has not been made manifested in this world.

So how did the first messenger know that it was actually god rather than just a voce in their head?
as you point out, without previous messengers, that person could know it was god.

The proof is then their lives, those people that meet the Messengers see that they are "Annointed" with a knowledge that is more than other Men.

So ordinary can't recognise and verify a god, but they can recognise and verify a messenger. Doesn't sound very likely, does it?

Then we have the Message, the knowledge of God is given, that Message is seen to be the ultimate knowledge, more than man can produce, thus proof that is from God.

But many knowledgable, learned, capable people dismiss the "message" as nonsense, while others manage to recognise it as children when told about it by their parents. How do you explain that?

 

[KWED]

You have been on this forum for quite some time now, and have been engaged in discussions.
Can you quote 10 verse of Bible, and 10 verse of Quran, from memory, word by word?
Well, maybe not too long.
But @CG Didymus has been long here. Can CG, do that?

I have never had a music lesson in my life but I can remember, play and sing a hundred or more songs without referring to any printed score.
Am I magic? By your argument, I must be.

 

[KWED]

The Messengers did not give wrong messages CG, they are all founded in truth.

So every word of every religious scripture is true?

Maybe we can consider this advice by Abdul'baha?
".. The Sun of Reality must be worshiped and followed. We must seek the fragrance of the rose from whatever bush it is blooming—whether oriental or western. Be seekers of light, no matter from which lantern it shines forth. Be not lovers of the lantern. At one time the light has shone from a lantern in the East, now in the West. If it comes from North, South, from whatever direction it proceeds, follow the light...."

So basically, whatever ideology takes your fancy, it is true and you should follow it.

 

[KWED]

You question above is in purple. That is what I answered. At the age of 16 in 1979 he would have had access to the same crappy manuals that I did. If he had any access at all. He might have had a a pre-Mac Apple, a Commodore machine, or a HP kit. And his own wiles. That is not an education trail. So yes. I could have done it. If he had been less interested in doing crime, he could most certainly have done it.

And again, religion and philosophy are much easier to self train in. No equipment needed.

Your argument may be perfectly rational and reasonable, but they believe Bahaullah's claim, they don't believe yours. And that belief is all the "proof" they need.

 

[KWED]

In those days, there was no security systems, the way we have today, so, it was not much of a big deal if he could break into a computer system network. His friend gave him a phone number.
i dont even know how that answers my question.
Just because he had access to some computer network does not make him better than those who have pHD and are experts.

It is simplly impossible to be better than experts in the field by simply having some self studies.


I would say, They are just two different fields or dubjects. I wouldn't say Religion is any easier than computers. Also, Philosophy is a different subject than Religious studies at universities.

As regards to religion, it is not easy at all. You would need to debate with different people so you can have a grasp of it.
It is not like, someone can sit home, get a Bible at hand, read it, and then after a year or two, be able to answer people's questions. You need to practice and participate in discussions and debute with people so, you know how to explain things or apply them to situations, even as you see on this Forum, how every single verse of Bible, can be a topic of long debates.
So, to be that good in it to establish some logic through verses, takes a long time.


Also Writing is not something that one can become good at it, all at once. A person needs to practice in writing. Those who wrote a good book, before had written many articles. You can only become good at writing gradually.


By these, I mean to say, according to history, Baha'u'llah was not writing anything before. When His missing began in 1853 He suddenly started writings Tablets and Books all from His memory. In Book of Iqan, He quotes more than a 100 verse of Bible and Quran, and recorded traditions all from mind to explain various subjects. He quotes without having books to look up things.
We saw here how, in case of Joseph Smith, or your guy, how there were evidence of their learnings. But, in case of Baha'u'llah who was well known, no body who knew Him, said He was learning religion on His own, or through having teachers or debating with scholars.
His knowledge appeared suddenly, and many of His followers or believers were educated Muslims, and even leaders who were teaching Islam. Consider, how these Muslims who believed Islam was the last Religion have been convinced that Baha'u'llah is a new Messenger after Muhammad. A Man, who did not even have any learnings in the field convince such Muslims!

There is nothing about Bahaullah's writings that suggest he had PhD-level knowledge of anything.
You just keep repeating the same claim that he was an illiterate ignoramus who could only have learned anything by magic - which is obvious nonsense given the context.

 

[KWED]

Maybe there is a reason He didn't create universe in a way that did not require it.

What do you think that reason could be?

It would have to be pretty good, like the reason for a school cook not making all the meals without any poison in them. (Note: this means "I don't know the mind of god" is not an acceptable answer)

 

[KWED]

Because God knows that suffering is the best way for humans to attain knowledge and wisdom.

But god created the means by which humans attain knowledge, so you are back to square one.
Why does god require so many people to suffer needlessly?

Wise and knowledgeable people are the evidence. Just ask them if they have suffered.

I haven't suffered. I have had a pretty easy and privileged life. I do postgraduate research in climate science, know a lot of stuff about other things, and generally enjoy myself doing stuff I love, with people I like.
Conversely there are many people who have suffered terribly through lack of basic needs like food, shelter, education, family, healthcare, etc who know very little about anything.

Suffering is most definitely neither necessary nor desirable. To claim it is merely perpetuates a callous and dismissive worldview.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@KWED,

You are treating the case of Bahaullah as if, all those Scholars who believed Baha'u'llah were naive and fools, or they did not have any good reason to believe.
Are you aware that, how many people in Persia gave their life due to their belief in Baha'u'llah. More than 20,000 early belivers were martyred. I don't blame you for not knowing much about the Bahai faith, because you are new to this.


When we talk about proofs, it is not like we always have to have the answers at hand. Many times historical narratives are constructed through logical deductions, based on clues or evidences.



To come to some conclusions, through logical deductions, let's try answering a series of questions, and then we see what can be concluded from them.
So, first question:

1. Baha'u'llah first claimed that He is a Manifestation of God in the year 1863 At that time He was 46 years old.

If you think He was learning stuff on His own prior to this date secretly, to plan for a future calim of Prophethood, how long prior to this year (1863) He was planning it secretly? How long before His claim He was secretly learning things, so He could later claim He knows things without learning?
Please answer this question based on evidences or at least a reasonable answer.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What do you think that reason could be?

It would have to be pretty good, like the reason for a school cook not making all the meals without any poison in them. (Note: this means "I don't know the mind of god" is not an acceptable answer)

Oh dear. You read the posts from early to later. If you read my later post, I have already replied to this.

But you do have a lot of pre-judgement, which comes through your debates with other non-Bahai religions. You think, the Bahais will tell you I don't know the mind of God? When did I say that?
The Baha'i scriptures sums up to 200 times volumes of the Bible. Anything you ask we can find a quote from Baha'i scriptures. Don't you think 200 times Bible, volume of scriptures have covered any possible question you can have?

 

[ppp]

You are treating the case of Bahaullah as if, all those Scholars who believed Baha'u'llah were naive and fools, or they did not have any good reason to believe.

People believe things every day with no good reason to believe. It is perfectly ordinary behavior.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

People believe things every day with no good reason to believe. It is perfectly ordinary behavior.

We don't have that many cases in history, that 20,000 die for their belief willingly in a Person who claim to be a Messenger of God.
Doesn't that tell you, the matter needs to be investigated more accurately?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Policy

Also, if you can, try and answer the first question in the post.

 

[KWED]

That will be infertile soil and a Barron seed.

The tree may start to grow, but it will not thrive and will die out.

Regards Tony

So you are claiming that religious belief will only thrive if true and good. So Christianity is the truest and goodest belief, followed by Islam, Hinduism, Sikhs, etc - with Bahaism somewhere near the bottom of the Trueness and Goodness league table.

 

[KWED]

Exactly. That's why we shouldn't go with just sayings of people. We should independently investigate the truth ourselves.

So anyone who claims to have independently investigated a set of beliefs and found them true/false are necessarily right?

 

[KWED]

Then Baha'u'llah tells us they are all from the same One God and that humanity is one people on one planet. That religion was always given to create a loving bond with all humanity.

Thus we now have that as a choice.

Regards Tony

It is highly disingenuous to claim that Bahaism considers every religious belief to be true and accurate. You actually claim that the others have flaws and only Bahaism offers the actual solution. It is no different to the others in that respect.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So anyone who claims to have independently investigated a set of beliefs and found them true/false are necessarily right?

Oh dear. This is a prerequisite condition. Not only this.
The point is, each person needs to investigate the matter independently, and without getting influenced by what others say. Because very often, people think, just because a great number of people say something, then it is a True information.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is highly disingenuous to claim that Bahaism considers every religious belief to be true and accurate. You actually claim that the others have flaws and only Bahaism offers the actual solution. It is no different to the others in that respect.

Obviously, you have not learned about Bahai Faith.
Bahai faith does not say other Religions are false. It says, each religion was revealed for a period of time. Each religion have a prescribed period, during which, its Laws are useful. Once that period is passed, God again sends a new Law, suitable for a new period of time. So, Bahai Faith is not also a final religion. In future other Manifestations appear and bring a better Religon for future times.