Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[Trailblazer]

*sigh* I should have this on speed dial...
This is a public, open, religious debate forum. people come on here to present and debate their religious views and views on religion. It's pretty much the only reason for any of us being here.
All religions are irrational, unreasonable, unacceptable or unpleasant to a greater or lesser degree.

Since this is a public, open, religious debate forum and people come on here to present and debate their religious views and views on religion here is my view:

All the true religions of God as revealed were rational and reasonable and acceptable, but since the older religions that preceded the Baha'i Faith were corrupted by man to a greater or lesser degree, many of their beliefs are irrational, unreasonable, unacceptable or unpleasant to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[KWED]

Yes, no man can be relied upon. A Messenger is not a man like us, that is the Messengers proof.

You still have to show that a god actually exists and that Bahaullah actually was his messenger. Insisting that Bahaullah does not count as "ordinary human" because he is a "messenger of god" is bare question begging. And special pleading.

A good proof of that is the billions that follow Jesus and Muhammad.

Mostly through childhood indoctrination. It is not a measure of the message. It is a measure of the susceptibility of the young mind. As Aristitle said ... "Give me the boy until he is seven, and I will show you the man".

The greatest rulers of earth have never had such followings,

Not studied much history, have you?

so what made Jesus and Muhammad stand out as true Kings, that is what people need to consider. It is now the same with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Whuh? Bahaullah has a few million followers. Kim Kardashian has more!

False prophets do not stand on their own message, they piggyback of another.

You mean like how Bahaullah claims that we should respect and follow all the previous messengers? Like how much of his writings are rehashed from other messengers?

Baha'u'llah has said, ".....My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

More meaningless platitudes and pipe dreams.

Thus I do not need to prove God or Baha'u'llah to anyone, they can take one look at the world affairs and ask themselves if humanity needs unity and cooperation without fear of tyrants, gangsters and money hungry individuals selling naught but the destruction of humanity.

Are you seriously claiming that he is the only person to think that?
However, most people also understand that it is unattainable because of the nature of humanity, of how societies work. Bahaullah was a naive dreamer. He may have genuinely believed that god had spoken to him, but there are institutions full of people with similar claims.

If people see unity is a worthy goal, then they have to consider how that change can be achieved.

People don't want unity. They want independence, self-determination and autonomy.

So if unity can only be obtained by listening to what God offered, how will a athiest mindset embrace those councils? It may be possible, but I fear not.

But you still haven't explained how that unity is to be achieved, other than "we must follow Bahaullah". And when I ask what that practical action that entails, you say "we must find unity". And when I ask how that is to bet achieved, you say "By following Bahaullah", and so the incoherent circle goes on...

It is circular because the Proof God has given us is everything.
"Every created thing in the whole universe is but a door leading into His knowledge, a sign of His sovereignty, a revelation of His names, a symbol of His majesty, a token of His power, a means of admittance into His straight Path."

Oh behave!
The world around us is evidence that there is no god. Only the scientifically illiterate and the critically challenged think otherwise.

If we do not look for God in anything we can not find God, if we look for God, we will find God in everything and the source of all that light, is the Messengers. That is why they are the best proof.

I have looked for god and only found nature and science.
"Oh, but you haven't truly looked. "
Yes, I understand that to find god, you first have to believe he exists. And so the circle continues to spiral incoherently up its own fundament.

 

[KWED]

As long the intention is to hurt someones belief, it is mocking, if it is asked "can you explain this from your religious belief" then accept the answer, it is not mocking

So any disagreement or reasonable criticism is necessarily "mocking".
Got it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you don't think parents owe their children anything.

God is not our parent. God owes us nothing, we owe God everything.

 

[Trailblazer]

Irrelevant. If god had sent messengers all with the same message, from the very beginning,

What would be the point of God sending many different Messengers all with the same message?
Why would God send a new Messenger in every age just to bring the same message?

 

[KWED]

The prophecy offers that that World Order is now a very distant future. What is needed is the Lesser Peace, so I will quote it again, what needs to happen.

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …"

This is not the Baha'is doing this. There are also many more passages on this topic about the "Lesser Peace".

As Baha'is, while all this unfolds, We will continue to build a New World order at community levels. Build the foundations of Virtues and Morals in service to each other, that will eventually pave way to a better future for all humanity.

Regards Tony

"Prophets" and their followers always have an excuse when their "prophecies" fail. History is full of them.

 

[KWED]

What would be the point of God sending many different Messengers all with the same message?
Why would God send a new Messenger in every age just to bring the same message?

Seriously?
God sends an original messenger to every region, each with the same message. The message is clear and easy to understand and incorruptible.
As humanity expands and civilisations meet, they find that they all follow exactly the same message. No conflict and pretty convincing evidence for the existence of an entity sending the message.
There is no need for repeated messengers because god gets it right the first time.
Result, unity of belief and purpose. No wars or oppression. Bam! Job done.

I'm genuinely surprised that god didn't figure this out for himself. I mean, it really isn't rocket science.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, Daniel said the Book is to remain sealed till End Time. Then we see in Revelation, the Promised One removes the seal of the Book of God. It means, He reveals the mysteries that were sealed in the Book.
But also, Jesus said this time I spoke Figuratively, but when I return I will speak plainly of the Father. We now know, what He meant

Two verses and all is explained. One verse says to seal the book. Another has the Lamb unseal a scroll. Of all the verses in the Bible and NT that aren't accurate, those two are true? Let's look at a little bit more of the context.

Daniel 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Revelation 5:5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals...
​

And what gets opened? The things that follow in Revelation. One seal after another is opened and all sorts of bad things happen. And in Daniel it goes right into this 1290 day and 1335 day prophecy. Something that is not interpreted very well by Baha'is...

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.



Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.

Two Tablets revealed by `Abdu'l-Bahá which are published in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: 1922), by Lady Blomfield and Shoghi Effendi, provide interpretations of the 1,335 days referred to by Daniel:​

Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear.

​

As I've said before, this has zero to do with the details in Daniel. Plus, Baha'is start them at two different times and makes one "lunar" years and the other "solar" years. Is that "unsealing" or just creative interpretations? Sorry, but I see these as flaws in what is supposed to be the infallible truth.

​

 

[Trailblazer]

Insisting that Bahaullah does not count as "ordinary human" because he is a "messenger of god" is bare question begging. And special pleading.

No, it is a religious belief and it has nothing to do with any logical fallacies, but that is all you atheists have to try to fight back. It is rather comical.

 

[KWED]

If someone from a religious faith harming others, they are not practicing correctly love and compassion.

Nice use of the No True Scotsman there. Chapeau!

However, we know that many religions include harming others as an integral part of their holy scriptures. Have you read the Quran or Old Testament? Pretty grim stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahai scriptures tells us, Religions have two kinds of teachings.
1. A part of it, are the laws and ordinances, such as prayers, fasting, punishments prescribed for stealing, laws of marriage and divorce. These laws and ordinances were revealed according to the exigencies of the time, place and culture of people at the time. Religion of God does not appear in vacuum. It appears in the context of culture and conditions. Thus, as in each Age and place, the conditions of people was different so, was the ordinances, laws and the culture of Religion that was revealed. In this sense God gave different ordinances in different times. This is why you see, Christianity is different from Islam, Islam different from Hinduism, and all for all are different.
2. The second type of teachings are not ordinances. They are spiritual teachings. These spiritual teachings are essential part of all religions of God, and they are the same. In that sense all religions are no different from each other in principle. A good example of it, is the golden rule:

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

Or people invent their own Gods and religion to suit their culture and needs. Again, the example of the Aztecs. They believed one of their God needed human blood. And, guess what, every time they sacrificed a human to their God, their crops grew and their empire prospered.

 

[KWED]

It is the Human that has been given the capacity via the Holy Spirit to know and Love God.
The Vegetable and Animal and Human Spirts all aid us to find that capacity, and are essential in that process.

So you concede that I was correct when I said that Bahai's believe that animals do not have a soul as humans do and cannot know god.
Then what did you mean by "This is the type of reply that ...is imputing your intent on to another."?

 

[KWED]

Since this is a public, open, religious debate forum and people come on here to present and debate their religious views and views on religion here is my view:

All the true religions of God as revealed were rational and reasonable and acceptable, but since the older religions that preceded the Baha'i Faith were corrupted by man to a greater or lesser degree, many of their beliefs are irrational, unreasonable, unacceptable or unpleasant to a greater or lesser degree.

IOW, "Baha'i is right. Other religions are wrong".
You also claimed that other religions are not wrong.

 

[KWED]

No, it is a religious belief and it has nothing to do with any logical fallacies, but that is all you atheists have to try to fight back. It is rather comical.

WADR, you don't understand what logical fallacies are. Or what rational arguments are. I also remember that I suspect all this is not doing you any good.
A bientôt.

 

[Trailblazer]

Seriously?
God sends an original messenger to every region, each with the same message. The message is clear and easy to understand and incorruptible.
As humanity expands and civilisations meet, they find that they all follow exactly the same message. No conflict and pretty convincing evidence for the existence of an entity sending the message.
There is no need for repeated messengers because god gets it right the first time.
Result, unity of belief and purpose. No wars or oppression. Bam! Job done.

God gets it right the first time? Gets what right?

I guess you do not understand the reason why God sends Messengers.
There is not just one message that will be good for all of time. What humanity needs changes in every new age. That is why God sends a new Messenger with a new and different message in every new age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

I'm genuinely surprised that god didn't figure this out for himself. I mean, it really isn't rocket science.

Wow, you are smarter than God, only you are not very smart if you cannot even understand the simple concept that I explained above. It is not rocket science.

You would have made a great Christian or a Jew. since they believe that only one Prophet and only one message from God was ever necessary, theirs!

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, no man can be relied upon. A Messenger is not a man like us, that is the Messengers proof. A good proof of that is the billions that follow Jesus and Muhammad.

My usual problems with this... Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses were far from perfect. There is no reason to believe they were "manifestations" of God, and even in Judaism they aren't consider to be manifestations. Same with Christianity.

With Jesus, I doubt that out of the "billions" that believed in Jesus not too many had the correct beliefs about him... according to what Baha'is believe about Jesus, that he is not God and didn't resurrect.

 

[Trailblazer]

IOW, "Baha'i is right. Other religions are wrong".
You also claimed that other religions are not wrong.

That is not what I said. I said that all religions were true when they were originally revealed but the older religions have been corrupted by man over time and they have lost their luster.

Moreover, the older religions were revealed for former ages, not for this age, and they have long since fulfilled their purposes. The Baha'i Faith was revealed for this age and it has the remedy that mankind needs in this age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Trailblazer]

WADR, you don't understand what logical fallacies are. Or what rational arguments are. I also remember that I suspect all this is not doing you any good.
A bientôt.

I certainly do understand what logical fallacies are and what rational arguments are.
I learned what all the logical fallacies are by posting to atheists for the last eight years, since they commit so many of them.

For example, special pleading is what atheists do 24/7, and then they accuse me of special pleading.
Pot and kettle.

special pleading
argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view.
https://www.google.com/search?q=special+pleading

 

[KWED]

God is not our parent.

It seems that this is just another contradictory position.
You consider him as a father when it suits, but absolve him of any responsibility when he behaves like a monster to his children.

God owes us nothing,

God created us and the conditions we have to live under. He didn't have to, but he chose to, using his free will. Therefore he is responsible for his choices.

we owe God everything.

So you agree that he is responsible for the position we find ourselves in.
(This is where you flip flop again and take up another contradictory position, because you haven't thought all this through)

 

[KWED]

God gets it right the first time? Gets what right?

Whatever he does. He is god.
Why do you imagine god to be this incompetent, real failure? It's almost as though you have less faith in him than I do.

I guess you do not understand the reason why God sends Messengers.

I thought we couldn't understand the mind of god.
Now you are telling me you know the mind of god.
It's just one conflicting position after another.

There is not just one message that will be good for all of time.

Why not?

What humanity needs changes in every new age.

Not if the message is perfect and universal.

That is why God sends a new Messenger with a new and different message in every new age.

And none of them have seemed to work.
And of course, you realise that is means that Bahaullah doesn't have the solution to mankind's problems either, despite this claims.

Wow, you are smarter than God,

No. I am just smarter than the fairly unsophisticated thinkers who claim to be messengers of god.

only you are not very smart if you cannot even understand the simple concept that I explained above. It is not rocket science.

Your "concept" is logically incoherent in the context of an infallible, omniscient god who has a goal he wants to achieve. It also implies that god will never achieve his goal, he is merely continuously putting band aids on a festering wound.

You would have made a great Christian or a Jew. since they believe that only one Prophet and only one message from God was ever necessary, theirs!

And you have just shown you didn't understand my argument. Yet again. My plan involves multiple messengers, all with identical messages. I thought that was entirely obvious, given that I explained it in very simple terms.