Are Comic Books Literature?

[painted wolf]

Isn't the definition of "High culture" a bit... flexible?

Impressionist painters were considered the lowest... now they are "high culture" Monet, Manet... once thought of as junk.

wa:do

 

[Nepenthe]

Isn't the definition of "High culture" a bit... flexible?

Impressionist painters were considered the lowest... now they are "high culture" Monet, Manet... once thought of as junk.

wa:do

Definitely.
And "outsider" art like Rizzoli to (my favorite) Darger took awhile to be accepted; as did "lowbrow" art from Robert Williams to tattoos. H.P. Lovecraft was considerd juvenile horror until literary interest in his works in France sparked renewed critical analysis and elevated him to the American literary ranks of a Poe or Hawthorne.

All once thought as junk.

 

[Nanda]

Awesome list-I second the highlighted!
I really really wanted to like Blankets, and I like Thompson's other stuff, but it left me cold and kind of annoyed.

Heh. Blankets is my absolute favorite. I find it incredibly moving and beautiful.

 

[d.]

Isn't the definition of "High culture" a bit... flexible?

Impressionist painters were considered the lowest... now they are "high culture" Monet, Manet... once thought of as junk.

wa:do

that's exactly my point. :help:

what i'm trying to say is that, IMHO, we should question the idea of 'high' and 'low' culture instead of trying to fit comics in a square hole (for example 'literature' or 'visual arts') where it'll never quite belong or feel comfortable. is that clearer?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

i'm saying that what people are trying to do when they call comics literature is the same thing they're trying to do when they call a pop song a symphony. they're trying to say 'this is as good as high culture'.

And what I'm saying is that I disagree with you. I understand completely what you're saying, I just see it differently.

Oh, and I've never heard anyone call a pop song a symphony. :sarcastic

 

[d.]

And what I'm saying is that I disagree with you. I understand completely what you're saying, I just see it differently.

what you were saying didn't match what i wrote. so i figured we weren't quite connecting...

Oh, and I've never heard anyone call a pop song a symphony. :sarcastic

'good vibrations' or 'river deep, mountain high' are just two examples of songs people like to call symphonies. but forget it, it's just an example.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

what you were saying didn't match what i wrote. so i figured we weren't quite connecting...

'good vibrations' or 'river deep, mountain high' are just two examples of songs people like to call symphonies. but forget it, it's just an example.

No worries, we don't have to agree on it. The issue is too subjective to have a definitive answer.

I know both those songs well, but I've never heard them called a symphony before. Strange. A symphony has a very well defined set of specifications and therefore can not be used to label something that doesn't meet those specs. However, Literature does not have a well defined set of specs and is therefore more subjective in its use as a label.

 

[d.]

ok, let me put it this way : why do you all think that 'literature' as a format is better than 'comics'?

 

[d.]

I know both those songs well, but I've never heard them called a symphony before. Strange. A symphony has a very well defined set of specifications and therefore can not be used to label something that doesn't meet those specs.

because people have the notion that classical music is intrinsically more elevated than pop music, which anyone that's familiar with, say, haydn should know is completely unfounded.

but i don't mean that people would say that they're actually a symphony, more that they're like a symphony, meaning that they're complex and in their opinion ranks as 'high art'.

However, Literature does not have a well defined set of specs and is therefore more subjective in its use as a label.

the specifications in literature's case is that anything that counts as literature is something that consists (mainly) of writing. comics is more than just writing.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

ok, let me put it this way : why do you all think that 'literature' as a format is better than 'comics'?

I don't and don't understand why you do. Literature is a label and to me has no connotation of good or bad. Are you saying that only some writings qualify as literature based on some sort of quality specifications? If so, what are those specs? How do you separate literature from other writings? Is Macbeth literature while Conan the Barbarian is pulp trash? To me they are both literature, it is an umbrella category that all other forms of writing exist under.

 

[d.]

I don't and don't understand why you do.

I DON'T.

but you yourself do when you say that you're trying to "give comics recognition they deserve" by calling them literature. that is more or less saying literature is better than comics. that is treating literature as a label that implies quality. that is what i think YOU do.

i say comics don't need the world of literature, or art, to lend it any prestige. comics are good as they are.

Literature is a label and to me has no connotation of good or bad.

then me saying 'comics is not literature' isn't the least bit condescending either, correct? literature is literature, writing, and comics is comics.

Are you saying that only some writings qualify as literature based on some sort of quality specifications?

NO! that's exactly what i'm not saying.

If so, what are those specs? How do you separate literature from other writings? Is Macbeth literature while Conan the Barbarian is pulp trash? To me they are both literature, it is an umbrella category that all other forms of writing exist under.

yes. they're all writing. 'krazy kat' isn't just writing.

 

[Nepenthe]

Heh. Blankets is my absolute favorite. I find it incredibly moving and beautiful.

I know I'm in the minority on this one. My friends insist I'm just plain wrong here.... but I found Goodbye, Chunky Rice more moving. But I definitely agree that there are moments of breathtaking beauty and sadness in Blankets.

Then again I also dislike anything done by Frank Miller so that makes me even further hated and reviled by fellow comic book nerds.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

yes. they're all writing. 'krazy kat' isn't just writing.

So you are saying the comics are not literature because they are more than just writing, because they have an art aspect. But does that mean that Shakespeares plays are not literature? They are much more than writing, they are a play with a visual medium included. But they are universally considered to be literature. Do they suddenly stop being literature the moment they are perfomed on stage? If a play can have componets to it that are more than just writing then why not a comic. Is the comic book script to be considered literature while the final product is not?

Note, I am not trying to force the label literature onto comics as you implied. I merely raised the question and I'm asking what I consider to be resonable questions reguarding your position on the subject.

 

[d.]

So you are saying the comics are not literature because they are more than just writing, because they have an art aspect. But does that mean that Shakespeares plays are not literature? They are much more than writing, they are a play with a visual medium included. But they are universally considered to be literature. Do they suddenly stop being literature the moment they are perfomed on stage? If a play can have componets to it that are more than just writing then why not a comic. Is the comic book script to be considered literature while the final product is not?

i see what you're saying, and you do have a point, although theatre is generally considered it's own art (as in the arts). when shakespeares plays is studied as literature it's generally the written aspect of the plays that's being discussed, the text. but if we're trying to understand macbeth or the tempest as just literature, we're missing a lot of the theatrical aspects of it. (some theatre people i know would argue that a play shouldn't be treated as literature at all) and likewise, if we try to understand krazy kat as writing with added pictures, we're missing what makes the medium of comics so special, more so than in the case of a play if you ask me.

there are certain things you can do with comics that's impossible in literature, and vice versa. and the comic format carries with it it's own set of expectations that's completely different than the expectations that comes with the various literary formats.

so i say the formats need to be appreciated on their own terms. i also think that the reason why comics is under-appreciated by a lot of people is precisely because they're judging it by literary standards, instead of appreciating them as comics.

:snoopy:

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

i see what you're saying, and you do have a point,

So in other words you agree with me.

So sorry, I just couldn't resist that one.

The only thing from your post I would argue against is the "more so than in the case of a play" part. I think they are exactly the same. I've been trying to break into the comic book writing biz for several years now and I have written a lot of scripts. I think they are pretty much exactly the same as plays or movie scripts. I can see why you would want to place more emphasis on the comic than the play but I think they are the same.

 

[d.]

I think they are exactly the same. I've been trying to break into the comic book writing biz for several years now and I have written a lot of scripts. I think they are pretty much exactly the same as plays or movie scripts.

well, that would explain our differing perspectives on this issue.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

well, that would explain our differing perspectives on this issue.

Surely.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Hey! I just got word that the anthology with my next short story has made it to print. Check it out here.

IndyPlanet

If you click on the second preview page it shows the first page of my story.

 

[Nanda]

I know I'm in the minority on this one. My friends insist I'm just plain wrong here.... but I found Goodbye, Chunky Rice more moving. But I definitely agree that there are moments of breathtaking beauty and sadness in Blankets.

Then again I also dislike anything done by Frank Miller so that makes me even further hated and reviled by fellow comic book nerds.

Goodbye, Chunky Rice is also lovely and heartbreaking.

My boyfriend often says that Craig Thompson is too sentimental for his own good - I always think of the end of Carnet de Voyage, when he's telling the trees and the kitties that he loves them.

 

[Nanda]

Shameless plug - I know he's my fella and all, so take it with a grain of salt if you will, but my favorite comics can be found here: Head Doctor Productions - short story comics and random comic strips. Saturday, April 25, 2009 In all fairness, I fell in love with his work long before we ever met.