Are equal rights for gays incompatible with religious liberty?

[Green Gaia]

On the flip side of the OP question, is the religious liberty of those who believe in equal rights for GBLT people denied when those rights are denied?

For example, time and again my congregation has affirmed our belief that same gender couples should be allowed civil marriage yet, it is against the law where we live for a same gender couple to be legally wed while a Christian church in the same area can legally wed a heterosexual couple because that is their belief. Is this not religious discrimination and denial of the same religious liberty to my congregation that is shown to the Christian church down the street?

 

[Moey]

Equality should have nothing to do with someone's religious freedom. They should be totally separate. Unfortinatly our elected officals don't see it that way. There is no real separation between church and state and they never has been. If anyone ever doubts that take a look at any US coin or dollar bill.

 

[Storm]

Just what do religious conservatives want from GBLT people? We aren't standing in the way of any of their civil rights unlike vice versa. We aren't say they shouldn't practice their religion how they see fit unlike them meddling into our legal affairs. So I don't understand how you can say we should be more tolerant of those who seem to wish to harm us for no other reason than that they want to. We aren't asking anything of you except to get out of our private lives and let us be equal citizens in the eyes of the law.

Hear, hear!

On the flip side of the OP question, is the religious liberty of those who believe in equal rights for GBLT people denied when those rights are denied?

For example, time and again my congregation has affirmed our belief that same gender couples should be allowed civil marriage yet, it is against the law where we live for a same gender couple to be legally wed while a Christian church in the same area can legally wed a heterosexual couple because that is their belief. Is this not religious discrimination and denial of the same religious liberty to my congregation that is shown to the Christian church down the street?

Yes.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Equal rights for LGBT people isn't incompatible with religious liberty, but some may find it incompatible with their religious bigotry.

And this is different from your own bigotry of imposing your beliefs on those who think differently..how?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No, not treating gays like fully equal citizens is an example of Christian conservatives denying the religious liberty of others.

I've encountered some people (mostly Christians) who argue that they are either against gay marriage, or simply won't vote *for* it, because they don't want to promote something that is against their religion. Of course this is ludicrous; these same people would whole-heartedly support the equal treatment under the law of non-Christian religious groups or marriages.

The flaw in your argument is that marriage is a union between a man and a women regardless of religious affiliation.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's not trampling on anyone's religious liberties, because gay marriage is optional, and not forced. Allowing religious groups and ministers etc who would choose to marry gay couples if they could is not restricting the religious liberties of Christians at all, just like being able to buy pork chops, pork loin, and bacon at the grocery store isn't interfering with the religious liberty of Muslims and Jewish people - they just choose to shop at a specialty store, or don't buy pork.
If a religion forbids something, then the people who are part of that religion should just not be involved with it. Trying to force that admonition against something on people who are not part of your religion is in no way protecting religious liberty. Quite the opposite.

This is sound reasoning.

 

[standing_alone]

And this is different from your own bigotry of imposing your beliefs on those who think differently..how?

I haven't imposed my beliefs on anyone.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Exactly right. Tolerance is what is needed. Unless both sides learn to be more tolerant of each other, change will be another generation away.

Tolerance is not a Christian principle.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I haven't imposed my beliefs on anyone.

Are you saying that you don't want Christians who believe that same-sex marriage is an abomination to accept is as a cultural norm?

 

[MaddLlama]

Exactly right. Tolerance is what is needed. Unless both sides learn to be more tolerant of each other, change will be another generation away.

And I suppose all of the pro-lifers who want to kill abortion doctors just need hugs too.

 

[Green Gaia]

Are you saying that you don't want Christians who believe that same-sex marriage is an abomination to accept is as a cultural norm?

No, we want them to accept it as a civil reality in a country that values freedom, justice, and religious tolerance; it's the American thing to do.

 

[standing_alone]

Are you saying that you don't want Christians who believe that same-sex marriage is an abomination to accept is as a cultural norm?

I believe the secular federal government should recognize and treat equally same-sex and opposite-sex couples in civil marriage, while religious institutions can decide whether they will recognize either a same-sex or an opposite-sex couple's marriage within their church or synagogue or mosque, etc.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And I suppose all of the pro-lifers who want to kill abortion doctors just need hugs too.

They can get hugs from their cellmates as long as they don't expect to get married to them.

 

[Green Gaia]

Tolerance is not a Christian principle.

That's debatable. But religious tolerance and freedom is an American value.

 

[McBell]

The flaw in your argument is that marriage is a union between a man and a women regardless of religious affiliation.

Perhaps it is now.
However it has not always been defined as between A man and A woman.

This is something that I find rather amusing about those who try to throw out some such nonsense as "Traditional marriage" supposedly being one man, one woman.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe the secular federal government should recognize and treat equally same-sex and opposite-sex couples in civil marriage, while religious institutions can decide whether they will recognize either a same-sex or an opposite-sex couple's marriage within their church or synagogue or mosque, etc.

I see, religious institutions can't try and instill their views into society but you can. I believe that's bigotry.

 

[MaddLlama]

Are you saying that you don't want Christians who believe that same-sex marriage is an abomination to accept is as a cultural norm?

I'm sure there are gay people who want everyone to accept them as normal, however I believe that is where the compromise is - Christians get to think bad thoughts all they want about gay couples, and gay couples can go on about their business and have marriages and relationships, the the two sides need never intersect.
Personally, I think thats the perfect arrangement in this case.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No, we want them to accept it as a civil reality in a country that values freedom, justice, and religious tolerance; it's the American thing to do.

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Perhaps it is now.

I believe that now is relevant.

 

[MaddLlama]

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

I'm not sure I understand what religion or gay marriage has to do with "cultural norms".

I think using the term "cultural norm" in any argument is silly because the very concept is either subjective, or non-existent.