Are equal rights for gays incompatible with religious liberty?

[Wandered Off]

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

Nothing is being "imposed" when participation is optional. If some people were trying to force you personally to marry someone of the same gender, then you'd have a legitimate instance of imposition.

 

[UnTheist]

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

Really? Gays getting the same rights as others is a form of bigotry?

 

[standing_alone]

I see, religious institutions can't try and instill their views into society but you can. I believe that's bigotry.

Nah, you're mistaken. See, if I were being bigoted, I would be forcing your church to marry same-sex couples with no consideration to how your religion feels. But I'm not because I think the church should have the liberty to decide whether or not they want to recognize same-sex couples within their institution. I just want the secular government treating same-sex couples equally as opposite-sex couples when there is no good reason to favor one over the other. You can continue to feel as negatively as you want about same-sex couples and I'll be free to have my relationship treated equally by the federal government and we'll never run into eachother or over each other's rights.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not sure I understand what religion or gay marriage has to do with "cultural norms".

I think using the term "cultural norm" in any argument is silly because the very concept is either subjective, or non-existent.

That's a red herring. It is the result of how various groups effect what is acceptable in their society.

 

[Green Gaia]

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

I'm not making anyone have a same gender marriage. Conversely, you have no right to stand in the way of those who do want one. Believe what you want and stay out of my bedroom and legal affairs.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Nah, you're mistaken. See, if I were being bigoted, I would be forcing your church to marry same-sex couples with no consideration to how your religion feels. But I'm not because I think the church should have the liberty to decide whether or not they want to recognize same-sex couples within their institution. I just want the secular government treating same-sex couples equally as opposite-sex couples when there is no good reason to favor one over the other. You can continue to feel as negatively as you want about same-sex couples and I'll be free to have my relationship treated equally by the federal government and we'll never run into eachother or over each other's rights.

That's a no go. You want your views as to how society should be to be accepted but do not wish Christians to be able to influence the society they live in.

 

[Green Gaia]

That's a red herring. It is the result of how various groups effect what is acceptable in their society.

So from what you're saying, you don't want tolerance and religious freedom to be acceptable in our society? Or do you just want tolerance and religious freedom to be acceptable for heterosexual Christians?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not making anyone have a same gender marriage. Conversely, you have no right to stand in the way of those who do want one. Believe what you want and stay out of my bedroom and legal affairs.

Wrong. Christians accually do have the right to influence society in a way that fits their beliefs. I call that democracy.

 

[Storm]

Tolerance is not a Christian principle.

Exodus:

Be kind to your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 23:4-5

Don't mistreat strangers. 23:9

Leviticus:

Don't hate people. 19:17

Love thy neighbor as thyself." 19:18

Be kind to strangers. 19:33-34

Treat others fairly. Don't cheat. 19:35-36

Do not oppress one another. 25:17

Deuteronomy

"Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." 10:19

"Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy." 15:11

"It shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow."
Be kind to widows, orphans, fatherless children and strangers. Share whatever you have with them. 24:17-21

Take care of those who need help. 26:12-13

Matthew

Blessed are the merciful" 5:7

"Blessed are the peacemakers" 5:9

"Love your enemies." Well, it's a nice thought. But it seems strange coming from someone who damns his enemies to hell. (Mark 16:16) 5:44

"Judge not, that ye be not judged." 7:1

Avoid hypocrisy. Consider your own faults rather than criticizing others. 7:3-4

"Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." 7:12

Forgive those who repeatedly offend you. 18:21-22




... and that's just a start. When exactly did "Christianity" throw out all of these passages in favor of "Praise God and pass the ammunition"?

 

[standing_alone]

That's a no go. You want your views as to how society should be to be accepted but do not wish Christians to be able to influence the society they live in.

My views wouldn't restrict the freedoms of others if put into practice nor would they violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

 

[Green Gaia]

That's a no go. You want your views as to how society should be to be accepted but do not wish Christians to be able to influence the society they live in.

Surely there are other ways in which you can influence society. Like, oh I don't know, helping the homeless, feeding the hungry... why put all your energy into making sure the government treats GBLT people unfairly just because you don't like us?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So from what you're saying, you don't want tolerance and religious freedom to be acceptable in our society? Or do you just want tolerance and religious freedom to be acceptable for heterosexual Christians?

I wasn't aware that same sex marriage was a religious freedom.

What I am saying is that Christians have the same right to influence the society they live in as you do. You seem to wish to deny them that.

 

[Green Gaia]

Wrong. Christians accually do have the right to influence society in a way that fits their beliefs. I call that democracy.

I call what religious conservatives are trying to do to GBLT people discriminatory and abuse of majority to hurt a minority, something which this republic guards against.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Surely there are other ways in which you can influence society. Like, oh I don't know, helping the homeless, feeding the hungry... why put all your energy into making sure the government treats GBLT people unfairly just because you don't like us?

Christians can multi task. I don't dislike anyone but there are some people Will Rodgers has never met.

 

[Storm]

So it's ok for you to impose your idea of cultural norms on Christians but not ok for them to do the same. Again, that's bigotry.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I call what religious conservatives are trying to do to GBLT people discriminatory and abuse of majority to hurt a minority, something which this republic guards against.

That's your opinion and I'm sure you will stick with it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's really funny. The debate, though, is about the character of legal marriage. Each side is allowed to try and influence it's outcome.

 

[Green Gaia]

I wasn't aware that same sex marriage was a religious freedom.

What I am saying is that Christians have the same right to influence the society they live in as you do. You seem to wish to deny them that.

You seem to wish to deny an entire group of Americans to be treated as equal citizens, why is that?

Religious conservatives say that allowing same gender marriage would violate their religious freedom to discriminate against GBLT people because their religion prohibits same gender marriage. My religion allows same gender marriage, therefore not allowing same gender marriage is violating my religious freedom.

 

[Green Gaia]

That's really funny. The debate, though, is about the character of legal marriage. Each side is allowed to try and influence it's outcome.

No, it's not. Please go back and read the OP.

 

[MaddLlama]

That's a red herring. It is the result of how various groups effect what is acceptable in their society.

It's not a red herring. The idea of what is "acceptable" to society changes over time, and has changed quite frequently. Using "cultural norms" as an argument for your position is specious.