Are Gun-Owners Delusional, Dishonest, Indifferent or Just Ignorant of the Evidence?

[Revoltingest]

There isn't a "linked thread" in the post of yours I responded to. What's your problem with simply citing that you claim are relevant to the topic here? (Or maybe you're not claiming that the studies you refer to are relevant to the topic here?)

Post #48 has the link.
And suncowiam linked Kleck's work.

These gun-v-no-gun threads have become tiresome.
Thus, I refer you to existing threads covering what you want.

 

[Nous]

There is no contradiction between the facts you have presented and my position that if someone were to violently invade my home, I want(I have) a gun to fend them off.

There is a contradiction between the stated primary reason that gun-owners give for owning a gun (including the reason you have just given) when the evidence shows that the gun (including your gun) is many times more likely to be used to kill or injure a family member or acquaintance, and is hardly ever used for the stated purpose.

 

[Stanyon]

For the vast majority of gun owners, guns are toys.

They can also be an investment, not that many years ago you could get genuine Russian SKS's for $99 when bought in fives, $89 when bought in ten or more, they now sell for about $400-$500 each- I would have bought a lot more if I had known.

 

[Nous]

It’s good old fashioned paranoia coupled with an insistence that the paranoia is justified which is more dangerous than the danger people want to protect themselves from. Let me give an example.

I live in a pretty quiet neighborhood. I have a neighbor who I am pretty good friends with who owns guns. Ok it’s his right etc. One time someone rings their doorbell at midnight he would have greeted them with a gun but nobody was there. He told me al about it wondering if people were going around houses bugging people. Ok great he is a neighborhood watch. So they have kids like me. I have also heard his elementary kid say “I’m gonna go get my dads gun” when arguing with neighbor kids. I will tell you what, that volatile situation scares me more than the chances some gangster will come try and ransack our houses.

Yeah, scary. It sounds like a firearm death or injury waiting to happen.

 

[Stanyon]

The American Association of Suicidology consensus statement on youth suicide concludes:
“There is a positive association between the accessibility and availability of firearms in the home and the risk of youth suicide; guns in the home, particularly loaded guns, are associated with increased risk for suicide by youth, both with and without identifiable mental health problems or suicidal risk factors.”52​

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/84f2/a934b795bae86ec4c6dff842275ef1b25b66.pdf
And, as relevant to the topic of the thread, and as found by one of Kellerman's studies cited in the OP, a gun kept in the home is 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to kill or injure in self-defense. Obviously kitchen knives are not more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than for the purpose for which they were purchased--i.e., to slice and chop food items. Correct?
So how do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of studies showing increased risk of death or injury from firearms to acquaintances and family members? I didn't see where you answered that question. You diverted into irrelevancies.

If someone really wants to commit suicide they will find a way with or without firearms, by and large though if someone wants to commit suicide firearms are probably the quickest, easiest, and least painful if done right. In the U.S. Firearms, suffocation/hanging and poisoning are the top three methods of suicide.
I haven't researched each and every countries gun control policies but here is the 2017 ranking by the WHO (World Health Organization) by suicide rates,
Japan (which has some of the strictest gun control policies in the world) ranks at #26 and the United States Ranks at #48
List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - The Atlantic
Japan arms laws "No one shall possess a firearm or firearms or a sword or swords" with few exceptions, doesn't seem like they came very far from the old idea of peasants should not be armed but the wealthy and royals can have them and armed guards- funny how that works but if it wasn't for the sword ban we might not see all the farm implements in the martial arts.
Satsuma Weapons Ban and the Development of Okinawan Karate |

 

[Nous]

Are you pretty sure that all studies are done with
pure objectivity in mind? Nobody ever misleads with stat s for partisan purposes?

Your present basically that gun owners are morally weak or simply insane. Oddly, having know quite a few, they none of them struck me that way. But maybe you know better.

Back when I did own a gun, and my boyfriend instructed me in its use, he pointed out how the studies
or, "studies" that one sees cited are partisan and dishonest is ways such as, say, giving the number of people killed "by guns" in a year. All in one number, as if all were senseless tragedies.

Why dont you break it down for us yourself?

How many, say, are badguys killed by police, how
many are badguys killed by citizens in self defense?


Those are tossed in to the total, as if they are equivalent and as tragic / reprehensible etc, as
a negligent discharge in the home killing a toddler.

The lady instructor told of her one time, using a gun for self defense. Road rage; she pulled into a gas station.
The guy followed, got out, ran to her car. She
was pointing a pistol when he got there. He reversed course, and all was well. That was not in the news, it is not part of your stats.

What do you think she should have done?

If you ever come across any evidence that substantiates your claim that "one can produce consistent findings to support whatever position one chooses to take," be sure to cite it.

 

[Nous]

If someone really wants to commit suicide they will find a way with or without firearms . . .

Irrelevant.

How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of greater risk of firearm death or injury to a family member or acquaintance?

 

[Audie]

If you ever come across any evidence that substantiates your claim that "one can produce consistent findings to support whatever position one chooses to take," be sure to cite it.

Seriously?

We refer you to no less an authority than Mark Twain.

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review


a site of interest- Gun Control – Just Facts

things like

A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[27]

 

[Underhill]

Cite the studies that show that owning a car increases the risk of death or injury for oneself, relatives and/or acquaintances.

I would assume one who owns a car would use it more than those who don't. Logically the risk would have to increase in the vast number of cases. Just as the risk of falling in the tub increases if one owns a tub.

 

[Stanyon]

Irrelevant.
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of greater risk of firearm death or injury to a family member or acquaintance?

Completely relevant, if you have sporting goods equipment whose misuse could possibly result in the injury or death of anyone then it is the responsibility of the owners to store and use them in a safe manner, the NRA has been saying it for years and offer classes and training on the subject.
NRA Explore | NRA Gun Safety Rules

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Seriously?

We refer you to no less an authority than Mark Twain.

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review


a site of interest- Gun Control – Just Facts

things like

A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[27]

Again, this is why metastudies are important. Yes, anyone can probably find A study that supports their preferred conclusions, however, when one side has a scant handful of studies supporting their preferred position, but the alternate position has several hundred, that tells us something.

Meta-analysis - Wikipedia

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

There is a contradiction between the stated primary reason that gun-owners give for owning a gun (including the reason you have just given) when the evidence shows that the gun (including your gun) is many times more likely to be used to kill or injure a family member or acquaintance, and is hardly ever used for the stated purpose.

Note the use of the argument about unnamed and nebulous evildoers are just waiting for a chance to enter the home with the willful intent to do harm

 

[Audie]

Note the use of the argument about unnamed and nebulous evildoers are just waiting for a chance to enter the home with the willful intent to do harm

Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

 

[Audie]

Again, this is why metastudies are important. Yes, anyone can probably find A study that supports their preferred conclusions, however, when one side has a scant handful of studies supporting their preferred position, but the alternate position has several hundred, that tells us something.

Meta-analysis - Wikipedia

Kinda like thousands of political messages must mean, something-

Saying it "again" does not come to much.
How does it relate to anything in the link provided ?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Cite the studies that show that owning a car increases the risk of death or injury for oneself, relatives and/or acquaintances.

You've got to be kidding me. It's obvious it's dangerous to operate a motor vehicle.

You can find the studies for yourself.

 

[Nous]

I would assume one who owns a car would use it more than those who don't.

In fact, you are probably correct here--though I haven't seen any such data (it could be pedestrians or non-car-owning riders who are most often injured or killed by automobiles). Nevertheless, the comment I was responding to was an irrelevancy anyway. The topic of the thread concerns how guns that are intended to be used for protection are more often used in contrary ways. Car-owners often use their cars every day (even multiple days per day) for exactly the purposes they were intended to be used--to get one or one's family to work and back,to the grocery store and back, on weekend trips and back--without injury or death to anyone, much less injury or death to one's family members or acquaintances. In contrast, the findings of the Kellerman study noted in the OP show that guns in the home are "4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense."

 

[idav]

You've got to be kidding me. It's obvious it's dangerous to operate a motor vehicle.

You can find the studies for yourself.

We’d have a completely different culture if MADD(mother’s against drink driving) cared as much about gun control.

 

[Nous]

Note the use of the argument about unnamed and nebulous evildoers are just waiting for a chance to enter the home with the willful intent to do harm

I do note that "argument". @idav likewise noted the paranoid aspect of gun-owning. It's part of the delusional rationale for gun-owning. It's such an extremely rare occurrence for burglars or others with criminal motives to break into a home while the home-owners are there.

 

[Audie]

In fact, you are probably correct here--though I haven't seen any such data (it could be pedestrians or non-car-owning riders who are most often injured or killed by automobiles). Nevertheless, the comment I was responding to was an irrelevancy anyway. The topic of the thread concerns how guns that are intended to be used for protection are more often used in contrary ways. Car-owners often use their cars every day (even multiple days per day) for exactly the purposes they were intended to be used--to get one or one's family to work and back,to the grocery store and back, on weekend trips and back--without injury or death to anyone, much less injury or death to one's family members or acquaintances. In contrast, the findings of the Kellerman study noted in the OP show that guns in the home are "4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense."

Aside from any other errors or dishonesty that may be present, we note this clever phrase.

A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per

Of course,those dont count, are not counted as they do not fit the narrative.

The three people I have spoken to who used a firearm
to prevent an assault never reported it to the police.

Then too, there is t he dishonesty of equating all guns
and all associated injuries, with guns bought specifically for defense.

A good case needs no deceit.

 

[Nous]

Aside from any other errors or dishonesty that may be present, we note this clever phrase.

A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per

Cite that 1994 CDC survey.