• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are Gun-Owners Delusional, Dishonest, Indifferent or Just Ignorant of the Evidence?

Audie

Veteran Member
I do note that "argument". @idav likewise noted the paranoid aspect of gun-owning. It's part of the delusional rationale for gun-owning. It's such an extremely rare occurrence for burglars or others with criminal motives to break into a home while the home-owners are there.

Not that I want to help your "case" but such over the top rhetoric as in bold serves only to make you look the fanatic while weakening whatever real point you may possibly have.

As does the false and misleading statement that
break-ins while owner is home are "extremely rare".

Speaking for myself, it turned out to be nowhere near rare enough.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Cite that 1994 CDC survey.

What , you think I made it up, t he way you make things up? I dont.

We are greatly amused by such as you who
demand a citation for everything they dont happen to like
as if by doing so you invalidate it.

IF you were interested in facts rather than a political posture, you'd already have seen that. And I did provide a link, which of course you, ah, pursued with due diligence. Right?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Post #48 has the link.
I didn't see anything you stated on that thread relevant to the topic of this thread.

How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of increased risk of death or injury to family members or acquaintances of gun-owners?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not that I want to help your "case" but such over the top rhetoric as in bold serves only to make you look the fanatic while weakening whatever real point you may possibly have.

As does the false and misleading statement that
break-ins while owner is home are "extremely rare".

Speaking for myself, it turned out to be nowhere near rare enough.
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of increased risk of death or injury to family members or acquaintances of gun-owners?
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
In fact, you are probably correct here--though I haven't seen any such data (it could be pedestrians or non-car-owning riders who are most often injured or killed by automobiles). Nevertheless, the comment I was responding to was an irrelevancy anyway. The topic of the thread concerns how guns that are intended to be used for protection are more often used in contrary ways. Car-owners often use their cars every day (even multiple days per day) for exactly the purposes they were intended to be used--to get one or one's family to work and back,to the grocery store and back, on weekend trips and back--without injury or death to anyone, much less injury or death to one's family members or acquaintances. In contrast, the findings of the Kellerman study noted in the OP show that guns in the home are "4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense."

No doubt about it.

It's all in the cost-benefit analysis. Knowing the benefits derived from cars I can accept the danger associated. As a gun owner and knowing the benefits from guns, I have a hard time saying the same with them.

The problem is that I cannot see a situation where guns could just be taken out of the equation. So I look for alternatives.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I don't know about most firearm owners, but I for one would answer any question over the phone in the same manner I did in the Navy
"I can neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons on-board" except I would replace nuclear weapons with firearms and on-board with in this household. If any thing that came through the mail on the subject it would go in the round file (now the recycle). This includes anyone on either side.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We’d have a completely different culture if MADD(mother’s against drink driving) cared as much about gun control.
I think drunkenness is a little different by which alcohol clearly alters the mind and effects proper judgment and common sense. Drunk people operating cars ....drunk people shooting guns... neither is clearly good.

The point of the whole argument is human death associated with the operation of either dangerous equipment or tools. It's why I site cars so much whenever it comes to comparisons with guns. In my view there's a disconnect present.

We vilify guns because it causes death whether by accident or intentionally and I'm not denying any fact that guns kill people cuz they do. However by the same token, we don't say a peep about cars or have them vilified whenever people continually get killed in them either through careless operation or intentional.

Cars are more dangerous than guns if you want to use death as a political lever for vilification.

Guns are essential for security and freedom and without them our country wouldn't even exist so we can have conversations and debates like these.

I'm not against regulation, but I want to see fair regulation by which our rights to bear arms are not infringed.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think drunkenness is a little different by which alcohol clearly alters the mind and effects proper judgment and common sense. Drunk people operating cars ....drunk people shooting guns... neither is clearly good.

The point of the whole argument is human death associated with the operation of either dangerous equipment or tools. It's why I site cars so much whenever it comes to comparisons with guns. In my view there's a disconnect present.

We vilify guns because it causes death whether by accident or intentionally and I'm not denying any fact that guns kill people cuz they do. However by the same token, we don't say a peep about cars or have them vilified whenever people continually get killed in them either through careless operation or intentional.

Cars are more dangerous than guns if you want to use death as a political lever for vilification.

Guns are essential for security and freedom and without them our country wouldn't even exist so we can have conversations and debates like these.

I'm not against regulation, but I want to see fair regulation by which our rights to bear arms are not infringed.

Fair discussion, too, without hyperbolic rhetoric or
phony stats.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
There is a contradiction between the stated primary reason that gun-owners give for owning a gun (including the reason you have just given) when the evidence shows that the gun (including your gun) is many times more likely to be used to kill or injure a family member or acquaintance, and is hardly ever used for the stated purpose.
How does the fact, being granted for the sake of the argument, that my guns are statistically likely to make my home more dangerous contradict having guns as a last resort for relief from violent assaults on my life, liberty, and property?

Note the use of the argument about unnamed and nebulous evildoers are just waiting for a chance to enter the home with the willful intent to do harm
Nonsense.

Cite that 1994 CDC survey.
Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. - PubMed - NCBI
"497,646 (95% CI = 266,060-729,231) incidents occurred in which the intruder was seen and reportedly scared away by the firearm"
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I didn't see anything you stated on that thread relevant to the topic of this thread.

How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the consistent findings of increased risk of death or injury to family members or acquaintances of gun-owners?
You could answer my question before asking more.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
How does the fact, being granted for the sake of the argument, that my guns are statistically likely to make my home more dangerous contradict having guns as a last resort for relief from violent assaults on my life, liberty, and property?


Nonsense.


Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. - PubMed - NCBI
"497,646 (95% CI = 266,060-729,231) incidents occurred in which the intruder was seen and reportedly scared away by the firearm"
"Nonsense " ? LOL. It's virtually a word for word quote.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
There is a contradiction between the stated primary reason that gun-owners give for owning a gun (including the reason you have just given) when the evidence shows that the gun (including your gun) is many times more likely to be used to kill or injure a family member or acquaintance, and is hardly ever used for the stated purpose.
This is a fallacious statement. You are applying statistical correlation and claiming causation. Further, you are claiming statistics apply to individual cases.

So do you do this because you are delusional, dishonest, indifferent, or just ignorant?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think drunkenness is a little different by which alcohol clearly alters the mind and effects proper judgment and common sense. Drunk people operating cars ....drunk people shooting guns... neither is clearly good.

The point of the whole argument is human death associated with the operation of either dangerous equipment or tools. It's why I site cars so much whenever it comes to comparisons with guns. In my view there's a disconnect present.

We vilify guns because it causes death whether by accident or intentionally and I'm not denying any fact that guns kill people cuz they do. However by the same token, we don't say a peep about cars or have them vilified whenever people continually get killed in them either through careless operation or intentional.

Cars are more dangerous than guns if you want to use death as a political lever for vilification.

Guns are essential for security and freedom and without them our country wouldn't even exist so we can have conversations and debates like these.

I'm not against regulation, but I want to see fair regulation by which our rights to bear arms are not infringed.
Cars are far more essential and used far more often than guns. Cars are far less dangerous per unit of use than guns.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Cars are far more essential and used far more often than guns. Cars are far less dangerous per unit of use than guns.
So it's therefore ok for deaths to occur while using cars even if the total death count exceeds guns as it stands.

Essentially it appears that one type of death is a "good" type of death. So cars need not to be vilified in the same vein as guns. So in essence the gun debate isn't about death at all in spite of people quoting the contrary.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So it's therefore ok for deaths to occur while using cars even if the total death count exceeds guns as it stands.

Essentially it appears that one type of death is a "good" type of death. So cars need not to be vilified in the same vein as guns. So in essence the gun debate isn't about death at all in spite of people quoting the contrary.
Correct. It's the difference between sugar and cyanide. I am pretty sure sugar kills more people than cyanide (by diabetes etc.), but cyanide is rightly vilified and banned, while sugar is everywhere.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Referencing some different study findings than those noted in the OP article of another current thread, I wish to inquire about how to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the facts showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home.

Surveys consistently find that the reason the majority of gun-owners give for owning a gun is for purposes of protection. E.g., America's Complex Relationship with Guns While this Pew survey found two-thirds of gun-owners asserting that protection is the primary reason for owning their guns, other surveys show as many as 88% of gun-owners giving this reason.

Yet, studies also consistently show that having a gun or guns in the home increases the risk that a family member or acquaintance will be killed or injured by firearm, either accidentally or intentionally, while providing no significant protection for persons in the home. E.g., from the review article, Risks and Benefits of a Gun in the Home, by David Hemenway:

The main reason people give for having a handgun in the home is protection, typically against stranger violence. However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger.[78] Although people typically spend most of their time at home, only 5% of all the crimes of violence perpetrated by strangers occur at home.[79]​

Hemenway goes on to cite data from the National Crime Victimization Surveys showing that in all confrontational incidents (not necessarily in the home) where a crime was threatened, attempted or completed, only 0.9% of victims reported using a gun for defensive purposes. Hemenway also gleans the findings of a 2004 study by Kleck involving 27,000 personal contact crimes, which found that the modes of resistance where the victim was least likely to be injured were running away/hiding, and calling the police (with injuries only 0.9% of the time in the case of the latter). In contrast, threatening the perpetrator with a gun was followed by an injury to the victim 2.5% of the time.

In the Chapter 1, Firearms and Violent Death in the United States, by Miller, et al., in Reducing Gun Violence in America, Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013, the authors report:

Kellermann et al. examined approximately 400 homicide victims from three metropolitan areas who were killed in their homes (Kellermann et al. 1993). All died from gunshot wounds. In 83% of the homicides, the perpetrator was identified; among these cases, 95% of the time, the perpetrator was not a stranger. In only 14% of all the cases was there evidence of forced entry. After controlling for illicit drug use, fights, arrests, living alone, and whether the home was rented, the presence of a gun in the home remained strongly associated with an increased risk for homicide in the home. Gun ownership was most strongly associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.[5]

[. . . ]

Household firearm ownership has also been consistently found to be a strong predictor of suicide risk in studies that examined individual-level data. U.S. case-control studies find that the presence of a gun in the home or purchase from a licensed dealer is a risk factor for suicide (Bailey et al. 1997, Brent et al. 1993, Brent et al. 1994, Brent et al. 1991, Brent et al.1988, Conwell et al. 2002, Cummings et al. 1997, Kellermann et al. 1992, Grassel et al. 2003, Kung, Pearson, and Lui 2003, Wiebe 2003). The relative risk is large (two- to tenfold), depending on the age group and, for younger persons, how firearms in the home are stored (Miller and Hemenway 1999, Brent et al. 1991, Kellermann et al. 1992).​

Citing a study that examined all gunshot injuries (both fatal and non-fatal) in the home occurring in Memphis TN, Seattle WA, and Galveston TX from 1992-1994 in which the gun involved was known to be kept in the home, Hemenway reports the findings:

Home guns were 4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.[99]​

So how does one account for the contradiction between the primary reason that the majority of gun-owners assert for owning a gun and the findings showing that guns in the home increase the risk of death or injury to a family member or acquaintance while providing no significant protection to persons in the home, and the defensive use of guns outside of the home is extremely rare and more often results in injury to the victim than simply running away, hiding, and calling the police?

Analogously, if someone were to profess that he eats 4 tablespoons of salt every evening as a diuretic in order to lower his high blood pressure, most of us would recognize the (apparent) contradiction between his declared reason and the facts relating to consumption of that amount of salt. And there would seem to be limited ways to account for this contradiction: (a) the person is delusional, holding a false belief despite knowing the evidence to the contrary; (b) the person is merely ignorant of the evidence relating to salt; (c) the person is lying (there is some other reason he eats all that salt). At least, unlike the case with gun-owning, we cannot say that the person is knowledgeable of but indifferent to the risks to friends and/or family members due to his exorbitant consumption of salt.

It seems there are limited ways to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the facts about gun-owning. How does one account for the contradiction?
I think they just don't give a *hit.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
So it's therefore ok for deaths to occur while using cars even if the total death count exceeds guns as it stands.

Essentially it appears that one type of death is a "good" type of death. So cars need not to be vilified in the same vein as guns. So in essence the gun debate isn't about death at all in spite of people quoting the contrary.
If you want a serious discussion, don't misquote people. No one said car deaths are OK. The point that has been made over and over is that cars are regulated precisely because they are dangerous, and guns should be at least as regulated. If cars were as loosely regulated as firearms in the US, I'm sure they WOULD be as "vilified" as guns.
 
Top