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Are Humans Animals Or Not ?

PureX

Veteran Member
Does this apply equally to our ancestors, and as to what stage of development would this apply - the divine realm, that is?
It does.

Any beings that we would see and recognize as our "ancestors" are being recognized as such by these characteristics. The earliest evidence of humans that we find very often include evidence of these characteristics: biological animals that are also abstract cognitive tool users that also perceive a 'spirit world' within/behind the material world that they inhabit.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It does.

Any beings that we would see and recognize as our "ancestors" are being recognized as such by these characteristics. The earliest evidence of humans that we find very often include evidence of these characteristics: biological animals that are also abstract cognitive tool users that also perceive a 'spirit world' within/behind the material world that they inhabit.
I don't think we have sufficient evidence to show this occurred throughout our development, H. sapiens and earlier, for example. And if so, then there will have been some point when agency began to be assigned to whatever, even if mistakenly like thunder and such.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
What separates us from animals?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
This is a common misconception. A chimp-like creature began walking more than swinging on trees, probably because the forest was receding and the plains were increasing, over 6 million years ago. During the last 6 million years these hominids evolved into 2 lines, one slowly becoming more like modern humans, losing body hair for the cooling system of sweating, eating meat and growing larger brains. They began making tools, using fire, burying dead. All of these hominids except homo sapien are gone. So we feel removed from animals. Other creatures have closer relatives or never evolved much past common species.
We evolved intelligence but for almost 200,000 years were wandering around in groups, hunting and living in groups just like other animals.
Modern living and intelligence makes us feel removed. We are exactly animals, homo sapien animals.
There are faster, stronger, better sight, can survive easier alone, immune to illness, have senses we don't have, so saying "higher" is meaningless.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I don't think we have sufficient evidence to show this occurred throughout our development, H. sapiens and earlier, for example. And if so, then there will have been some point when agency began to be assigned to whatever, even if mistakenly like thunder and such.
There is never enough "evidence" for those that don't want to accept something.

We assume that at some point in the evolution of life forms some life form that we would not recognize as "human" evolved into a life form that we do recognize as "human". And the characteristics listed above are generally how we identify the latter from the former: the use of tools, and the recognition of 'spirit'.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
There is never enough "evidence" for those that don't want to accept something.
For good reasons - they might come up with wrong answers, and hence why we have so many conflicting religious beliefs perhaps. Probably best to leave one's mind open and wait for proper evidence.
We assume that at some point in the evolution of life forms some life form that we would not recognize as "human" evolved into a life form that we do recognize as "human". And the characteristics listed above are generally how we identify the latter from the former: the use of tools, and the recognition of 'spirit'.
But 'human' is just semantics and how we can differentiate between the processes of evolution, hence why we seem to have issues with when such occurred - 200,000 or 300,000 years and until we get even better evidence - but we seem to know that the line from which we came is sufficiently good evidence to know we were and always will be primates. As to spirit - please inform me when it appears as proper evidence.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is never enough "evidence" for those that don't want to accept something.

We assume that at some point in the evolution of life forms some life form that we would not recognize as "human" evolved into a life form that we do recognize as "human". And the characteristics listed above are generally how we identify the latter from the former: the use of tools, and the recognition of 'spirit'.
Technology and some invisible "spirit" are not what makes us biologically human, though. "Human" is just a noun designating a particular species of animal, like "cow" or "platypus." It is our anatomy and physiology that designates us as human, just as anatomy and physiology designate trout and ravens.
Unless we're being poetic, human is a biological term, not a description of behavior or lifestyle.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Once again a binary question is incapable of producing and honest or intelligible answer.
Sure it is. Are humans animals? Yes. That's simple and intelligible, and also correct.
Humans are both physical (animals) and metaphysical (cognitive) beings. We exist as both realms of being with an awareness of yet a third "divine" realm of being from which the others spring.
This, on the other hand, is neither simple nor intelligible. "Yes" would have sufficed. Instead, you answered a question not asked and in a vague manner. Cognition is metaphysical to you? I can't even disagree, since I can't tell what you are claiming is the case here.

And as best as can be determined, nothing is literally divine if by divine you are implying supernatural gods. But, if you're just being poetic rather than scientific, fine, but such ideas add nothing in a scientific discussion.

You muddied the waters. You wrote, "a binary question is incapable of producing and honest or intelligible answer "and turned a simple question with a simple answer into something else. How does doing that serve you? I think I've answered that question to my own satisfaction, but sharing it would likely annoy you, and might be a violation of RF's TOS. But if you ask, I'll gladly share my hypothesis. Typically, you are uninterested in participating in such discussions.

You participated in the thread where yesterday, the discussion turned to why unbelievers participate in a venue called Religious Forums, where you offered your opinions. My answer included, "I seem to never get tired of looking at how people think" and "how people process information and how the willingness to believe by faith modifies thought is interesting to me" followed by a reference to "the insights one can glean participating here and surveying a large cross-section of religious and irreligious types to detect trends that emphasize the different ways different approaches to processing information affect personality."

You and I have also recently discussed your take on reality, which I would link to if I knew that it wasn't a TOS violation, wherein you claimed that people were nothing but ideas and that gods and vampires clearly exist in a discussion in which a distinction was made between ideas and their external referents if any.

This discussion has been interesting to me, and I wouldn't know where else to find or have it but a venue that attracts the faithful and allows them to expound anonymously for months or years.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
Every animal species have things that separate it from other animals. They would not be a different species, otherwise.Therefore, according to your logic, animals do not exist.

ciao

- viole
 

PureX

Veteran Member
For good reasons - they might come up with wrong answers, and hence why we have so many conflicting religious beliefs perhaps. Probably best to leave one's mind open and wait for proper evidence.

But 'human' is just semantics and how we can differentiate between the processes of evolution, hence why we seem to have issues with when such occurred - 200,000 or 300,000 years and until we get even better evidence - but we seem to know that the line from which we came is sufficiently good evidence to know we were and always will be primates. As to spirit - please inform me when it appears as proper evidence.
But being a primate is not what defines us, and it never has been. And we don't know what happened or when, that set us apart from all the other animals to such a striking degree. But we do know the characteristics that resulted. And that still define us to this day.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Technology and some invisible "spirit" are not what makes us biologically human, though.
Biology is not what defines us "human" as the term "human" refers to a great deal more that just our biology.
"Human" is just a noun designating a particular species of animal, like "cow" or "platypus." It is our anatomy and physiology that designates us as human, just as anatomy and physiology designate trout and ravens.
Unless we're being poetic, human is a biological term, not a description of behavior or lifestyle.
It's not being "poetic" to call ourselves humans in reference to somethng more than biology, it's just being honest.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
We are a type of animal. We are classified based on the shared characteristics of animals that we possess.

The phylogenetic classification of humans.

Domain: Eukaryota; Kingdom: Animalia; Phylum: Chordata; Subphylum: Vertebrata; Class: Mammalia; Subclass: Theria; Superclass: Tetrapoda; Order: Primates; Family: Hominidae; Genus: Homo; Species: H. sapiens.

Our cells have a membrane-bound nucleus and organelles. Our cells are large by comparison to Prokaryota. We have rod-like chromosomes. These features identify us in the domain, Eukaryota.

We are multicellular heterotrophs that lack cell walls possess internal digestion and differentiated tissues. These define us as animals.

The remaining taxonomic associations defining us to class, order, family, etc. are available on the internet for further information.

We possess traits that define us as a species, but those traits do not elevate us out of existence lineage as separate from it.

It would be like have a prodigy musician in a family of people that can't carry a tune in a bucket and declaring that prodigy is elevated out of his ancestry. It makes no sense to say so or consider it. The prodigy is a still a child of, a cousin of, a sibling of the other members of the family.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Biology is not what defines us "human" as the term "human" refers to a great deal more that just our biology.

It's not being "poetic" to call ourselves humans in reference to somethng more than biology, it's just being honest.
Asking whether humans are animals is asking a biological question, like asking whether trees are plants. Bringing in metaphysics and technology is taking the question into a poetic realm.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
But being a primate is not what defines us, and it never has been. And we don't know what happened or when, that set us apart from all the other animals to such a striking degree. But we do know the characteristics that resulted. And that still define us to this day.
I think the birth of symbolic language is probably the thing that began our separation from all other species, but a talking, writing, and thinking primate is still a primate. We just happened to have everything in place for such a development to occur, whereas most other species did not and do not have such. Who knows how long we were a talking and thinking species before becoming a writing one. After all, the use of parchment and then paper will hardly define as to when things changed, even if the YEC believers seem to rely on this.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
It all depends on how you define "animaĺ"

This is just a "vocabulary " question that has few if any scientific or philosophical relevance
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think the birth of symbolic language is probably the thing that began our separation from all other species, but a talking, writing, and thinking primate is still a primate. We just happened to have everything in place for such a development to occur, whereas most other species did not and do not have such. Who knows how long we were a talking and thinking species before becoming a writing one. After all, the use of parchment and then paper will hardly define as to when things changed, even if the YEC believers seem to rely on this.
But language is itself the result of a degree of abstract thought that is unprecedented. Symbolic representations ARE abstractions. Words, images, spirits; are all abstract representations of our experienced reality. This ability is why we are not just another species of primate. But when and how did this happen?

No one knows.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
It all depends on how you define "animaĺ"

This is just a "vocabulary " question that has few if any scientific or philosophical relevance
It has philosophical relevance as we can debate if it makes sense to use any other "vocabulary" than a scientific for that question. And if we use scientific nomenclature the question has a definitive answer, the only question then remains how to teach those who don't get it.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
But language is itself the result of a degree of abstract thought that is unprecedented. Symbolic representations ARE abstractions. Words, images, spirits; are all abstract representations of our experienced reality. This ability is why we are not just another species of primate. But when and how did this happen?

No one knows.
Yes, and for 200,000 or 300,000 years, and no doubt earlier, there was no requirement for this seemingly, and the individual(s) who came up with such were no doubt laughed at - who needs this! And it was probably counting that evolved into symbolic language anyway - there being a definite use for counting. Who can ever predict the effects of inventions? Lasers had no expected use when first discovered, and even early computers seemed a novelty. How do we know what AI will do for us? And we are supposedly reasonably intelligent and thinking creatures now, so what was it like so long ago?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yes, and for 200,000 or 300,000 years, and no doubt earlier, there was no requirement for this seemingly,
There is no requirement for it, now. In fact, the entire ecosystem would be better off if we humans had never developed this amazing ability to abstract (cognate) reality with imagination, and create conceptual representations of it that we can then shift around and inter-relate and thereby come up with tools and possibilities that did not otherwise exist.
and the individual(s) who came up with such were no doubt laughed at - who needs this! And it was probably counting that evolved into symbolic language anyway - there being a definite use for counting.
Among other animals, auditory expressions of fear, anger, lust, and so on have developed because they provided an advantage. I'm sure it was the same with humans. But with humans this went WAY further, because somehow we developed the realization that those sounds were also "representations" of those states of being. And could therefor be used to relate an idea or memory of those states to others even when it was not 'actual'. And with that knowledge, we could make up all kinds of sounds to represent all kinds of conditions that we not immediately 'actual'.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
There is no requirement for it, now. In fact, the entire ecosystem would be better off if we humans had never developed this amazing ability to abstract (cognate) reality with imagination, and create conceptual representations of it that we can then shift around and inter-relate and thereby come up with tools and possibilities that did not otherwise exist.
Perhaps, but we did, and hence such likely just being natural, although not inevitable. And why us rather than the Neanderthals for example? Why did one monkey discover how to wash sweet potatoes, and this then being passed on throughout communities and down generations? Perhaps because such was advantageous to them.
Among other animals, auditory expressions of fear, anger, lust, and so on have developed because they provided an advantage. I'm sure it was the same with humans. But with humans this went WAY further, because somehow we developed the realization that those sounds were also "representations" of those states of being. And could therefor be used to relate an idea or memory of those states to others even when it was not 'actual'. And with that knowledge, we could make up all kinds of sounds to represent all kinds of conditions that we not immediately 'actual'.
True. And we can see, as per the example cited above, that many non-human species also seem to discover or invent new ways of acting. Is there nothing going on in their minds so as to cause such things? I think the main difference between humans and all other life is that we seemingly have plenty of spare brain power available and mostly they don't, although no doubt when we learn more about animal communication we might think differently.
 
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