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Are Humans Animals Or Not ?

PureX

Veteran Member
Perhaps, but we did, and hence such likely just being natural, although not inevitable. And why us rather than the Neanderthals for example?
I don't see why any of this matters?
Why did one monkey discover how to wash sweet potatoes, and this then being passed on throughout communities and down generations? Perhaps because such was advantageous to them.
You're losing the point, here. It's not about "washing potatoes". It's about creating imaginary representations of actuality, and then re-arranging and re-relating them in our minds to help us envision possibilities that did not and would not otherwise exist if we had not imagined them. And then our causing them to exist as a result.
True. And we can see, as per the example cited above, that many non-human species also seem to discover or invent new ways of acting. Is there nothing going on in their minds so as to cause such things?
They "stumble into" these behaviors and then take them up for expedience. We create new possibilities in our minds and then try them out. This is a HUGE difference in methodology. And it accounts for the huge difference between ourselves and every other life form on the planet, and possibly, anywhere.
I think the main difference between humans and all other life is that we seemingly have plenty of spare brain power available and mostly they don't, although no doubt when we learn more about animal communication we might think differently.
Lots of animals have bigger brains than we do. It's not that. Our brains have an ability to make connections that apparently no other life forms on this planet have.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It all depends on how you define "animaĺ"

This is just a "vocabulary " question that has few if any scientific or philosophical relevance
It has a very specific scientific definition and biological relevance. It also has philosophical and æsthetic relevance. I might refer to a terrorist as an animal, without any taxonomic implication.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I don't see why any of this matters?

You're losing the point, here. It's not about "washing potatoes". It's about creating imaginary representations of actuality, and then re-arranging and re-relating them in our minds to help us envision possibilities that did not and would not otherwise exist if we had not imagined them. And then our causing them to exist as a result.
But this came much later in our development, such that what went before seems to have been discarded.
They "stumble into" these behaviors and then take them up for expedience. We create new possibilities in our minds and then try them out. This is a HUGE difference in methodology. And it accounts for the huge difference between ourselves and every other life form on the planet, and possibly, anywhere.
Blame our increased brain power for such. Why concentrate on relatively recent times as opposed to the far past?
Lots of animals have bigger brains than we do. It's not that. Our brains have an ability to make connections that apparently no other life forms on this planet have.
Brain capacity not size alone. And such is related as to the environment within such finds itself.

And it seems you are just dismissing our past, given that we were once at the stage that so many other species are at, and perhaps always will be at. We got lucky, but we have had much the same development as many other species. The point about the washing potatoes is that, much like recognising a sharp flint to be useful as a cutting implement, it was seemingly an unusual event that became the norm - even if by chance - and probably as happened with our species. So why are we so different from all other species? Purely because we advanced so rapidly and had the brains to make use of this? Not really a good answer in my view - or any evidence of some spirit guiding such.

As I've mentioned, it probably is purely down to symbolic language that separates us from all other species, although we don't actually know this yet. AI is likely to to be able to decipher old languages in clay tablets and also to decipher thoughts within the brain, so deciphering the languages of many other species should be easy-peasy work for what AI will eventually become.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
But this came much later in our development, such that what went before seems to have been discarded.
Not really. It's how we managed to envision tools that didn't otherwise exist, and then made them exist.
Blame our increased brain power for such. Why concentrate on relatively recent times as opposed to the far past?
"Brain power" is a very vague term. To be more specific, it's imagination. Which is an ability to create abstract representations of reality in our minds and then inter-relate them in ways never seen before. And this ability goes all the way back to tool-making, shelter building, and planting.
Brain capacity not size alone. And such is related as to the environment within such finds itself.
Again, "capacity" is a very vague term. The key features are as stated above. And we have no idea how they occurred, or when. But all the evidence points to it being very early, and it being a very significant departure from the cognitive abilities of all the other life forms on the planet.
And it seems you are just dismissing our past, given that we were once at the stage that so many other species are at, and perhaps always will be at. We got lucky, but we have had much the same development as many other species.
Have we? Or do you just believe that as part of standard evolutionary theory. Keep in mind that evolution involves more than a very long, slow process of natural selection and environmental demands. It also involves mutation, and the very rare but immediate advances that can cause. And it is likely that there are still other influences that we cannot yet detect.
The point about the washing potatoes is that, much like recognising a sharp flint to be useful as a cutting implement, it was seemingly an unusual event that became the norm - even if by chance - and probably as happened with our species. So why are we so different from all other species? Purely because we advanced so rapidly and had the brains to make use of this? Not really a good answer in my view - or any evidence of some spirit guiding such.
It's still a very vague 'answer' that is not identifying the actual cognitive assets that somehow occurred. And that clearly set us apart from all the other life forms around us.
As I've mentioned, it probably is purely down to symbolic language that separates us from all other species, although we don't actually know this yet. AI is likely to to be able to decipher old languages in clay tablets and also to decipher thoughts within the brain, so deciphering the languages of many other species should be easy-peasy work for what AI will eventually become.
Language, tools, spiritualism; these are all results of the 'great leap' (for lack of a better term), not the cause.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Not really. It's how we managed to envision tools that didn't otherwise exist, and then made them exist.
And yet for 200,000 or 300,00 years we hardly changed at all. It seems more like we had chance inventions and there simply wasn't the population numbers to make use of these - such inventions dying out and re-emerging again and again perhaps, because there was only oral communication to pass on such knowledge for so long.
"Brain power" is a very vague term. To be more specific, it's imagination. Which is an ability to create abstract representations of reality in our minds and then inter-relate them in ways never seen before. And this ability goes all the way back to tool-making, shelter building, and planting.

Again, "capacity" is a very vague term. The key features are as stated above. And we have no idea how they occurred, or when. But all the evidence points to it being very early, and it being a very significant departure from the cognitive abilities of all the other life forms on the planet.
To me this seems to be rather more about differences of quality, given that some apes make bedding in the trees, many species use tools, and many form the same sorts of social structures as we have done.
Have we? Or do you just believe that as part of standard evolutionary theory. Keep in mind that evolution involves more than a very long, slow process of natural selection and environmental demands. It also involves mutation, and the very rare but immediate advances that can cause. And it is likely that there are still other influences that we cannot yet detect.

It's still a very vague 'answer' that is not identifying the actual cognitive assets that somehow occurred. And that clearly set us apart from all the other life forms around us.

Language, tools, spiritualism; these are all results of the 'great leap' (for lack of a better term), not the cause.
Well I'm not seeing a great leap, and more a set of reasons as to why we managed to advance so quickly in relation to other species - because so much was set in place for us to succeed. Still just evolution though.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
And yet for 200,000 or 300,00 years we hardly changed at all. It seems more like we had chance inventions and there simply wasn't the population numbers to make use of these - such inventions dying out and re-emerging again and again perhaps, because there was only oral communication to pass on such knowledge for so long.

To me this seems to be rather more about differences of quality, given that some apes make bedding in the trees, many species use tools, and many form the same sorts of social structures as we have done.

Well I'm not seeing a great leap,...
Yes, I think you're trying hard not to see it. And I'm not here to debate anyone's bias out of them.
and more a set of reasons as to why we managed to advance so quickly in relation to other species - because so much was set in place for us to succeed. Still just evolution though.
I wasnt suggesting that it was not evolution. I was suggesting that evolution is more interesting than we realize. Or perhaps that you are willing to recognize.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Yes, I think you're trying hard not to see it. And I'm not here to debate anyone's bias out of them.

I wasnt suggesting that it was not evolution. I was suggesting that evolution is more interesting than we realize. Or perhaps that you are willing to recognize.
Ditto for you I think, and why we have so many doing the exceptionalism thing over humans - but rather natural too. :rolleyes:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And if so or not why ? I personally think that humans share lots of similar things to animals but I also know that there are things that separate us from animals so to me it would seem that humans are part animal and part higher than animal.
Yes, there are many similarities throughout the kingdom of animals.

Eyes, limbs, brains, hearts and so many more things. Even birds and fish have some of the same things. Cells have same things. Atoms have same things.

But I see man as a class in of itself. A being that has a spirit which no other creation has.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Ditto for you I think, and why we have so many doing the exceptionalism thing over humans - but rather natural too. :rolleyes:
All the other life forms on the planet were subject to evolution, too. And yet only one life form developed abstract imagination. So clearly something extraordinary happened in the evolution of that one life form. And it happened before tool making and language and superstition happened, because those are results, not causes. If you can't or won't acknowledge that I can't help you to do that.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
All the other life forms on the planet were subject to evolution, too. And yet only one life form developed abstract imagination. So clearly something extraordinary happened in the evolution of that one life form. And it happened before tool making and language and superstition happened, because those are results, not causes. If you can't or won't acknowledge that I can't help you to do that.
No, as I pointed out in some thread or another, we simply had all the various bits necessary for our intelligence and us to thrive (physically and mentally), even if such took hundreds of thousands of years anyway (hardly any physical changes going on). Virtually all other species didn't, even if they developed in various ways that exceed our capabilities so often. The fact is that knowledge is what tends to fuel evolution - when a species has the intelligence and the abilities to make full use of such. We humans just happened to have this, whereas all the other hominins apparently didn't, and neither do most other species.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
But I see man as a class in of itself. A being that has a spirit which no other creation has.
Each time I read something like this, it makes me sad to know that there are still people that think this way...that man is somehow better or more important than other creatures exist on this planet.

It is this sort of thinking that has led to destruction of other animals' habitats and endangerment or extinction of species.

This was the first and most significant belief that let me away from Catholicism and Christianity in general.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No, as I pointed out in some thread or another, we simply had all the various bits necessary for our intelligence and us to thrive (physically and mentally), even if such took hundreds of thousands of years anyway (hardly any physical changes going on). Virtually all other species didn't, even if they developed in various ways that exceed our capabilities so often. The fact is that knowledge is what tends to fuel evolution - when a species has the intelligence and the abilities to make full use of such. We humans just happened to have this, whereas all the other hominins apparently didn't, and neither do most other species.
The other primates also had the same "bits" as we did, and yet here they are, not at all imaginative.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
The other primates also had the same "bits" as we did, and yet here they are, not at all imaginative.
Not really, since there will be some aspect missing - like brain size, speech, the changes due to walking upright for most of the time, the diet we could tolerate and obtain, for example. With just one or a few missing, many species would never have developed as we did. Why for example did the Neanderthals die out? Perhaps because they simply failed to develop symbolic language.

I'll just repeat what I see as to why we were so successful when so many other species apparently haven't developed as far as we have:

* We don't spend inordinate amounts of time feeding or sleeping (as so many other species do) - thus freeing up time for other things.
* We usually eat high value food (often developed by humans) and are quite capable of being omnivorous, unlike so many other species that are necessarily obliged to have one particular diet - thus being dependent upon such being available. And we became good at hunting other species or replacing such with farming. That is, we controlled our food supply. Also, we have managed to gain more from our intake of food by cooking and fermenting various ones - that might not be edible otherwise.
* We have very useful hands/fingers/opposable thumbs so as to flexibly manipulate materials and construct things as we see fit. Also apparently useful for many other things.
* We developed bipedalism - which enabled the previous to become so valuable to us, apart from any other benefits - like being able to chase after and snare game or move to different habitats. From our origins in the jungle, we also have not lost our abilities to climb, which is very useful as to obtaining various foods - much of which might be lost to other species that cannot do this.
* We have much greater intelligence and powers of thought so as to benefit from that which is materially available to us - and to be adaptable - like constructing shelters, making clothing, making and using tools, using fire, developing technology and manufacturing, including a variety of things that often enable us to live in widely different habitats and environments, and to travel more easily to such places (taming horses and building boats), or using such to simply to make life easier or safer for us. Also, perhaps we have evolved to value learned knowledge as much or more so than innate knowledge - and especially so in the last several thousand years after we invented writing and materials to record such.
* We are quite flexible socially, in that we can cooperate in small groups, and much larger ones, these latter often having quite varied social structures but still being viable.
* We have developed complex speech and symbolic language so as to communicate more efficiently that knowledge we (some) have worked so hard to obtain, and no doubt our ability to vocalise a wide range of sounds enhanced such. Plus, we know the value of the knowledge that others might have, and where able, we integrate such into our knowledge base - this so often transcending many generations.
* We have used our knowledge to extend our natural lives and to prevent death (from injuries or ill health) when previously this would not have been possible. We also apply such knowledge to areas of food production so as to enable these to be more productive.
* We have been able to develop concepts, which may not have any physical existence, but which have value for us as to enabling or benefiting our societies, and hence perhaps prolonging our existence.
* We have been able to tame many non-human species or to live reasonably well with them, and with many being affectionate companions.

We might claim social structures as one in particular (which releases us from offspring-rearing duties, for example) but many other species do such. The same goes for tool use, but many species show this too. Another might be our morality, but many species also seem to display such, even if in a more primitive form. And against this, we have relatively long periods developing, and being vulnerable during such, before becoming contributing adults, unlike most other species.

So although it is obvious that many species are more powerful than humans, often have better senses, and can do much more than humans (flight and living underwater, for example, as well as often having better memories than humans), is it that we have fine-tuned the very best and most appropriate things so as to turn us into the most successful of creatures - even if by accident? And no doubt it would be difficult to put any of these items into any order so as to say that one relied on any other's existence before coming to prominence. Look at any other species. One or more of these items will be missing such that they could never rival us as to taking our position, and likewise, we would never have made it as to being where we are now. The nearest species to do so would likely be another primate species.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Not really. It's how we managed to envision tools that didn't otherwise exist, and then made them exist.

"Brain power" is a very vague term. To be more specific, it's imagination. Which is an ability to create abstract representations of reality in our minds and then inter-relate them in ways never seen before. And this ability goes all the way back to tool-making, shelter building, and planting.

Again, "capacity" is a very vague term. The key features are as stated above. And we have no idea how they occurred, or when. But all the evidence points to it being very early, and it being a very significant departure from the cognitive abilities of all the other life forms on the planet.

Have we? Or do you just believe that as part of standard evolutionary theory. Keep in mind that evolution involves more than a very long, slow process of natural selection and environmental demands. It also involves mutation, and the very rare but immediate advances that can cause. And it is likely that there are still other influences that we cannot yet detect.

It's still a very vague 'answer' that is not identifying the actual cognitive assets that somehow occurred. And that clearly set us apart from all the other life forms around us.

Language, tools, spiritualism; these are all results of the 'great leap' (for lack of a better term), not the cause.
Crows make and use tools.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, there are many similarities throughout the kingdom of animals.

Eyes, limbs, brains, hearts and so many more things. Even birds and fish have some of the same things. Cells have same things. Atoms have same things.

But I see man as a class in of itself. A being that has a spirit which no other creation has.
I see man in a species in and of itself, but including birds and fish in the same class.
"Spirit" seems rather vague and insubstantial; not really a definitive, physical feature.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It'll matter when they start painting and sculpting idealized representational forms with them. Until then, crows 1, humans 1 billion. :)
But ancestry/taxonomy isn't based on technology, it's based on lines of descent.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
But ancestry/taxonomy isn't based on technology, it's based on lines of descent.
Not an especially informative criteria, though, is it. As it clearly tells us very little about how we are the way we are. Or why none of the other life forms on Earth are like is.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes, there are many similarities throughout the kingdom of animals.

Eyes, limbs, brains, hearts and so many more things. Even birds and fish have some of the same things. Cells have same things. Atoms have same things.

But I see man as a class in of itself. A being that has a spirit which no other creation has.
Just to be clear: you believe humans to be a class of itself in a religious sense - you don't deny that that humans are animals in a scientific sense?
 
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