Are Mormons Christians?

[SoyLeche]

Please reference the post number.

It'll be easier to reference Katz' reiteration of my question somewhere around post 130.

 

[Aqualung]

Finally we are in agreement. I found an honest Mormon at last. We are all Christians but follow different teachings of Christ.

That's true. I follow the teachings of Christ that can be found in the Bible (cf. Amos 3:7, Acts 15:32, Rom 12:6, 1 Cor 12:10, 1 Cor 12:28, 1 Cor 13:2, Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 1,), whereas you apparnatly do not. Christ taught the NECESSITY of prophets, and yet, does your church have prophets? If not, how can you even make the claim that your christianity is MORE biblical than mine? Is it only biblical if you reject most of the Bible?

Moreover, where then do you get that our view of CHRIST HIMSELF is different? You are making a logical jump. You say that because I follow the Bible I don't believe in the same Christ as you. While that may be true (I have no idea, after all, what christ you follow), it certainly doesn't necessarily follow. You'll have to clarify more of the links in that chain.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't believe this answered SoyLeche's question. He didn't ask how many copies of the Book of Mormon you have owned over the years. He asked if you've actually read it.

Triple post!

 

[Aqualung]

Could you please post the official position of the LDS church regarding the bible? I know it goes something like this: "we believe the bible to be god's word as long as it is correctly interpreted or translated or something like that". That's a nice little option that you have. I have discussed and debated with many Mormon missionaries and Mormon missionaries in the last 12 years. At the end of the face to face debate, all the Mormon has at the end is the "burning of the bosom". Maybe the Mormon missionary had indigestion that day? I personally choose the Bible over the burning of the bosom. If you would like to discuss Romans, please start a Thread. - BT

Another triple post! Awesome.

 

[nutshell]

Look for Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible if the LDS church did not bury it from you?

I am well aware of Joseph Smith's translation, but are you aware that we don't use it? We use a King James version with some footnotes that make reference to the Joseph Smith translation, but the text of our Bible is the King James, with title page and everything.

I'm glad you didn't deny you were here to fight and that you are losing. That's progress.

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, since you are a member of the LDS church, please explain what you mean by the "FULLNESS" of the gospel. Did the Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter, Apostle John, etc proclaim a partial and incomplete gospel to the world? How do you reconcile this core LDS belief with Galatians chapter 1? Do you agree about the LDS mission of the restoration of the historical christian church from apostasy? - BT

Of course Paul had the fulness of the gospel. He was an Apostle of Jesus Christ, after all. All of Christ's Apostles had the fulness of the gospel. It was not until after they were martyred that the purity and simplicity of Christ's message began to be lost. Paul prophesied constantly of an apostasy. He said Christ wouldn't return to begin His millennial reign until both a "falling away" and a "restitution of all things" had taken place. The scriptures are full of his warnings to the early Christians that the Church Christ established would not endure in its pristine state. The fact that you aren't a Catholic is evidence in and of itself that you believe an apostasy took place. After all, both the Roman and Eastern Churches have been around a lot longer than your Church has. Why don't you accept Catholic doctrine as valid? Catholic doctrine has a history far more ancient than that of the "Bible only" churches. Or is it possible that you actually do accept some Catholic doctrines, just not all Catholic doctrines? If that is the case, then you believe they have a partial understanding of Christ's gospel while you have a complete understanding of it. That's what the term "fulness of the gospel" is referring to. Mormons believe there is truth to be found in all Christian denominations and in a great many non-Christian denominations as well. We simply believe -- as do the Catholic Churches -- that our Church has the complete or full gospel while other Christian denominations do not. That doesn't mean we believe that a person must be a Mormon in order to be a real Christian. We believe that there are hundreds of millions of non-LDS Christians in the world today and that much of what their Churches teach is true.

 

[Booko]

Article of Faith #8: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." What's wrong with that? Do you think every Bible was/is translated correctly? Are you aware that we use the King James version of the Bible just like many many other Christians?

I really haven't met too many Christians that thought the Bible was necessarily translated 100% correctly, though there were some beliefs along the line of God helped inspire the translators to do a better job.

Still, anyone who knows more than one language knows that some meaings always get lost in translation.

Although I have met a few Christians who were under the impression that Jesus Himself wrote the Authorized Version personally.

I never quite understood that, and usually asked the person who said something like that why the Epistles were always in the name of the Apostles, and why Jesus would write them for the Apostles after His death and resurrection...

After we receive the Word, the Truth will be confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Some people describe this as a "burning of the bosom." I do not. If you don't rely on the Spirit for truth, what are you relying on?

I've had Baptists and evangelicals suggest I pray for guidance. This happened most often back in the day when I was an atheist and they were trying to save my soul or whatever.

Are the Baptists and evangelicals therefore somehow not Christians? <puzzled look>

I figure who's a "true" Christian and who isn't is way above my pay grade anyway.

 

[Katzpur]

This is so weird, i was just reading about this subject. Sorry to cut and paste, but the way its put is really good, and far better than i could.

Porkchop, I believe I have mentioned to you on a number of occasions that we would very much appreciate your leaving the interpretation of LDS doctrine to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have never attempted to tell you what your believe. Please do us the favor of extending us the same courtesy. When you post your own understanding of what we believe, you inevitably get it wrong. It's one thing to disagree with us, but quite another to distort and parody our beliefs. If you sincerely believe that you are in the service of your Lord, you must believe that He does not need you to be misrepresent the beliefs of others in order to make yours more credible.

 

[nutshell]

I've had Baptists and evangelicals suggest I pray for guidance. This happened most often back in the day when I was an atheist and they were trying to save my soul or whatever.

Are the Baptists and evangelicals therefore somehow not Christians? <puzzled look>

I figure who's a "true" Christian and who isn't is way above my pay grade anyway.

I don't believe I implied Baptists/Evangelicals were not Christians. I believe they are.

 

[Comprehend]

Yes, you are right to call Mormons Christians because you follow the teachings of Jesus created by “The Church of Latter Day Saints” through extra-biblical revelation (Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants).

bible truth, are you so unfamiliar with our church that you don't know the name or are you so un-christian that you would intentionally misrepresent our name?

The name of our church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."

"Extra-biblical revelation" is a non-sequiter. There was no such thing as the bible when God gave revelation to Moses was there? So was Moses' revelation "extra-biblical"? yep... What you should be concerned with is whether the revelation comes from God if you profess to be one who follows God, rather than being concerned with what men have decided to include and exclude in their book of scripture unless you follow men...

However, “The Church of Latter Day Saints” follows a different Jesus than the biblical Jesus revealed in the Bible alone (see 2 Cor 11 below).

The scripture does not show that the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints follows a different Jesus. However, you insistance on misrepresenting the name of our church shows what kind of individual you are...

The Mormon Church also believes in a different gospel than what can be found in the Bible alone.

Nope. (what, did you get tired of lying about our name?)

The Mormon Church worships a different god than the God revealed in the Bible alone.

Nope. But I am guessing you do if you believe in the trinity which isn't found in the bible.

The Mormon Church preaches a different gospel than the Apostle Paul. The Mormon Church has changed the gospel found in the Scripture alone through revelation from Angel Moroni (see Galatians 1 below).

Nope. In order of Galatians to apply, you would first have to demonstrate that what we preach is different from what was preached to the Galatians and since no record exists in the bible of the conversion of those peoples, you would need to have some "extra-biblical" source and I know how you feel about those right?

When an organization adds to the Bible, they will always create a different faith, different Jesus, different God, and a different Gospel that is proclaimed by biblical revelation alone.

Says you. Do you have any evidence for your categorical assertion?

Historical Biblical Christianity proclaims that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh. The Scripture also proclaims that Jesus Christ is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.

Really? The word "trinity" isn't in the bible so it would be an amazing trick for it to say that...

The Westminster Confession of Faith – God and the Holy Trinity Chapter 2

3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

So much for no "extra-biblical" stuff eh? LOL. Funny how you had to go out of the bible to find the trinity isn't it? I guess you don't believe in the God that is found IN the bible...

Yes, Mormons can call themselves Christians because they follow their own version of Jesus. The Mormon Church believes the Historical Biblical Christian church is apostate. I’m a Christian because I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who is revealed through the Bible alone.

No.

What historical biblical christian church? you capitalized it like that was a proper name, what church are you talking about?

Except for when you need your "extra-biblical" crutch to invent the trinity right?

The Mormon and Biblical Christians believe in a different Jesus, different gospel, and different God. Both belief systems are mutually exclusive of each other.

No, we do not believe in a different Jesus, you just don't understand Him as well as we do. The beliefs are not mutually exclusive, one just has more information than the other. There is only one Jesus, we worship Him, just like you.

The difference is seems is that you are so un-christian as to presume to tell us what we believe. Too bad I guess, Jesus taught me in the bible to love my neighbor, not lie about him and condemn him...

The LDS Church and Bible Christians cannot both be right. Both Faiths can be wrong. One of the Faiths can be right. However, both cannot be right at the same time.

About what exactly?

Secondly, you seem to be under the delusion that there is a unified church called "Bible Christians" there is no such organization, you MSC's all have different beliefs, baptism/no baptism, what kind of baptism, which bible to use, which bible is the correct translation, they can't all be right, rapture/no rapture, on and on and on...

I wish church members of “The Church of the Latter Day Saints” would be honest with everyone.

I find it a little funny and mostly annoying that you would LIE as you ask someone to be honest with you...

How about you be honest with everyone and use our correct name. Only a little child would feel the need to annoy and harrass a religion in such a childish manner. Is that hate something you learned in the bible?

The Book of Mormon is considered to be more than another testament of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon changes the Jesus and gospel that are found in the Bible alone.

you keep asserting this yet you have provided no evidence... maybe that is because you can't because you haven't actually read the Book of Mormon. How embarrassing is it to attempt to go around and spread the word about something you don't have the slightest idea about...

We can debate which gospel is from God and which one is from an Angel of Light. But, please don’t deceive others that you are worshiping the same Jesus as Evangelical Christians. Proclaim the LDS faith and the restoration of the apostate Christian church. But, don’t deceive the readers on this site by blending “Historical Biblical Christianity” with “The Church of Latter Day Saints”. -

Quite honestly, I think you are deceiving us, you sure talk a lot like a former member on this site who has been banned.... you wouldn't happen to have been a member under a previous name would you?

 

[Comprehend]

Hi Katzpur and other Mormon friends,

If you can honestly agree with the two links to the Christian Faith, I will consider the Mormon Church to be another Christian denomination. Please study the two “Christian Statement of Faith” below and compare it with "The Church of Latter Day Saints Statement of Faith”. - BT

http://www.ligonier.org/thegospel_affirmations.php


[URL="http://www.t4g.org/T4TG-statement.pdf"]http://www.t4g.org/T4TG-statement.pdf[/URL]

Bible truth,

How about you give your own short list of what it takes to be a Christian. It couldn't be very long...

for example, what about Katzpur's list?

 

[Gentoo]

The difference is seems is that you are so un-christian as to presume to tell us what we believe. Too bad I guess, Jesus taught me in the bible to love my neighbor, not lie about him and condemn him...

Careful, this presumption is dangerously close to what he's presuming of you.

 

[nutshell]

Bible truth,

How about you give your own short list of what it takes to be a Christian. It couldn't be very long...

for example, what about Katzpur's list?

I'm not Bible Truth, but I'll give it a shot.

Requirement 1: Believe in the Christ of the Bible, specifically, the one found in Romans.

Requirement 2: Don't be a Mormon.

 

[Comprehend]

I'm 46 years old and professed the Biblical Christ at 18 years old. However, I believe I was actually granted salvation in my late twenties.

I am just curious... how did/do you know that you were granted salvation?

also, what denomination of Christian are you? I am guessing pentacostal... do I win a prize?

 

[Vassal]

The biggest problem with the Church of Latter-Day Saints is that they follow a book that can&#8217;t even be proven as factually correct. The Book of Mormon claims that a small group of Israelites came over to the Americas and eventually became the principle ancestors of the American Indians. Biological, anthropological, linguistic, and archeology all disprove the claim that Native Americans have ANY Hebrew decent or cultural influence. The Book of Mormons also mentions plants, animals, and technologies that were not present in the Americas until after the eastern world started coming over. There is also no textual evidence to suggest that the Book of Mormon ever existed until Joseph Smith decided to write it in the 1800s.

Theologically (beliefs about God and his nature), there isn&#8217;t much difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, however, Mormons also believe in other books called the Doctrine & Covenant and the Pearl of Great Price. The D&C and PoGP make claims that God was once flesh and bones like we are, there is a counsel of gods, that man exists before they are born on Earth, that men can become gods, and that polygamy is required for salvation. Such things are not taught by Christ or anywhere in the Bible, so how can they possibly fit the definition of Christian (follower of Christ)?

Mormons will tell you they believe in the Bible, but their Book of Mormon states that they &#8220;believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly&#8221;. The Bible has been proved to have been some 99&#37; unchanged over the past 2,000 years, with some of the older individual books having textual backups dating nearly 3,000 years old. There can&#8217;t be any doubt that the books in the Bible are virtually identical to when they were first written, so any other translations, such as the New World Translation by Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses, can be easily identified. You either Believe in the Bible or you don't. To state that you only believe in the Bible &#8220;so far as it is translated correctly&#8221; is just the same as saying &#8220;so far as it doesn&#8217;t disagree with any of our other teachings&#8221;.

 

[Comprehend]

I'm not Bible Truth, but I'll give it a shot.

Requirement 1: Believe in the Christ of the Bible, specifically, the one found in Romans.

Requirement 2: Don't be a Mormon.

LOL, sounds about right...

 

[nutshell]

Careful, this presumption is dangerously close to what he's presuming of you.

Point out where Comprehend has told Bible Truth what he believes. There are plenty examples of the opposite.

 

[nutshell]

The biggest problem with the Church of Latter-Day Saints is that they follow a book that can&#8217;t even be proven as factually correct. The Book of Mormon claims that a small group of Israelites came over to the Americas and eventually became the principle ancestors of the American Indians. Biological, anthropological, linguistic, and archeology all disprove the claim that Native Americans have ANY Hebrew decent or cultural influence. The Book of Mormons also mentions plants, animals, and technologies that were not present in the Americas until after the eastern world started coming over. There is also no textual evidence to suggest that the Book of Mormon ever existed until Joseph Smith decided to write it in the 1800s.

Theologically (beliefs about God and his nature), there isn&#8217;t much difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, however, Mormons also believe in other books called the Doctrine & Covenant and the Pearl of Great Price. The D&C and PoGP make claims that God was once flesh and bones like we are, there is a counsel of gods, that man exists before they are born on Earth, that men can become gods, and that polygamy is required for salvation. Such things are not taught by Christ or anywhere in the Bible, so how can they possibly fit the definition of Christian (follower of Christ)?

Mormons will tell you they believe in the Bible, but their Book of Mormon states that they &#8220;believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly&#8221;. The Bible has been proved to have been some 99&#37; unchanged over the past 2,000 years, with some of the older individual books having textual backups dating nearly 3,000 years old. There can&#8217;t be any doubt that the books in the Bible are virtually identical to when they were first written, so any false translations, such as the New World Translation by Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses, can be easily identified. You either Believe in the Bible or you don't. To state that you only believe in the Bible &#8220;so far as it is translated correctly&#8221; is just the same as saying &#8220;so far as it doesn&#8217;t disagree with any of our other teachings&#8221;.

As soon as you purge your post of the many many errors and misrepresentations I'll begin to take you seriously.

 

[Katzpur]

You have found the heart of the division of Mormonism and Historical Biblical Christianity.

Excuse me? What are you trying to say? You totally lost me here.

Where and how does God speak to fallen mankind?

Amos 3:7 states: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto hisservants the prophets."

God has communicated with "fallen mankind" since the beginning of time. Is there some reason you believe He would have suddenly decided to stop? Is He no longer capable of doing do? Does He love us less than He loved His children in ancient times? Have we become so sophisticated that we can do without His continued guidance?

The 1st Century church relied on primarily the Old Testament.

It replied primarily on the Old Testament and on the words of living prophets and apostles.

The letters written by Paul and other biblical writers are addressed to the 1st century church and were self-authenticating by the church itself. Councils were not needed by the church to know the apostolic authority the letters had.

Somewhere along the line, councils appeared to have become necessary, didn't they? That's because apostolic authority was lost. Consequently, revelation to the Church through living prophets ceased.

 

[Gentoo]

Point out where Comprehend has told Bible Truth what he believes. There are plenty examples of the opposite.

What I quoted in that post is what I thought was getting close to it. It may not be, I was just advising to be careful not to stoop to such levels. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.