Are Mormons Christians?

[Aqualung]

[critique] You should have used different colors for all of your circles [/critique]

[critique]you should edit the picture out of your reply so it's not taking up so much screen space.[/critique]

 

[Booko]

1. Belief in Christ as the Son of God and as the Savior.

This is what the distinguishing factor is for a Christian, though I'd refine it a little more.

Heck, I believe in Christ as the Son of god and as Savior as well, but I'm not a Christian, because that's not where I look *first and foremost*.

But that's a minute point anyway.

2. Acceptance of certain doctrines (i.e. the Trinity, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Predestination).

What kind of doctrines did Christians have for, say, the first few decades after Christ? Were they somehow *not* Christians because they hadn't run across a few difficulties in understanding the details of the Gospels yet?

3. Having received water baptism.

Meh. The theif on the cross hadn't received water baptism either.

4. Having been "born again".

A label noticably absent for the bulk of Christian history.

5. Attending a Christian Church.

Pfft -- my family not only attends my Mom's Christian Church, we do about 75% of the Christmas programme whenever we're with Mom, and at other times we always chip in on the Ministry of Music and sometimes fundraisers they're doing. That doesn't make us Christian.

6. Seeing ones self as a Christian.

Did I mention I see myself as a grey elf?

 

[Booko]

For those who don't think that Mormons are Christians, I guess I'd ask -- then what are they? Buddhists?

The name "Jesus Christ" is right there in the name. And they look to the same Bible other Christians do.

The use of the Book of Mormon is not typical of other Christians, and for that reason it wouldn't be unusual to state that Mormons are not normative Christians. But then, I've not yet met a Mormon who would be offended just by that observation, and they have their reasons for believing that being normative is not the best or most accurate choice anyway.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur asked:

Are Mormons Christians?

Yes, but remember, I posed the question at the request of someone else. There is no doubt in my mind that I am a Christian.

I am not a Christian, therefore I am unqualified in rendering any accurate assessment of a personalized testament of specified (Christian) sectarian affiliation.
[I keep waiting for someone to point me towards that one definitive "final exam" that can establish an objectively measured and unequivocal validation of anyone's personal piety/sincereity within any personalized creedal claim of espoused sectarian affiliation. Obviously, whomever grades/scores the test for others, must have passed it themselves first. ;-)

Since the one who is going to be grading that final exam has no interest in this debate, I suspect you're going to have to keep waiting.

This "debate" resides alone within the Christian "community" (whatever that actually entails or purports). Catholics, Protestants, and other "non-sectarian" Christians, appear to be the only people that (seek to) deny Mormons their claim of like affiliation.

Yeah, isn't that strange? In my opinion, Christians who refuse to acknowledge Mormons as fellow Christians really aren't behaving as a Christian should, at least according to my definition of what a Christian is. Back to Square One.

 

[Katzpur]

In certain beliefs they stray from the confines of Christianity in my opinion.

If you were to rephrase that to say, "Mormons stray from the confines of traditional Christianity," I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get any argument from any of the Latter-day Saints on this forum.

 

[Quiddity]

If you were to rephrase that to say, "Mormons stray from the confines of traditional Christianity," I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get any argument from any of the Latter-day Saints on this forum.

What is the difference?

 

[bible truth]

Okay, so I already know the answer to the question.

A new poster by the name of Bible Truth, however, is of a different opinion, and has suggested that this question be debated by "all who have been granted spiritual ears to hear." If you believe the condition of your spiritual ears qualifies you, and you are interested in weighing in on this, please feel free.

Since Bible Truth asked me to start this thread for him, I hope he will be so kind as to begin by defining the term "Christian," as my definition clearly does not suit him. To the best of my knowledge, the Bible never actually makes a clear statement as to what a "Christian" is. Jesus did say, however, that men would know His disciples by the love they showed for one another. According to LDS belief, a Christian would be a person who believes that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, who worships Him and looks to Him for salvation, and who strives to follow Christ's example in how he lives his life.

I would not presume to tell anyone who considers himself to be a Christian that he isn't one because he does not believe everything the Latter-day Saints do. I hope that Bible Truth will offer the Latter-day Saints the same courtesy. Otherwise, we might as well call off the debate entirely. This isn't, after all, a debate on "Are Mormons Lutheran?", "Are Mormons Catholic?", or "Are Mormons Baptist?"

Matthew 7:21:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Dear Mormon friends,

Here is the central issue. Not all who claim to be a Christian will enter the kingdom of God. Are you familiar with the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards called “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”? This is a work of God that was part of the Great Awakening (revival) in America in the 1700’s. This sermon was delivered in the church to the church congregation. Please read the sermon on-line.

Part of the Great Commission (Matthew 28) is to discern who are the mission field. The mission field are all who reject the gospel of God proclaimed in the Bible. The mission field also includes all who have never heard the Gospel of God proclaimed (Romans 10). There is no such thing as the 'fullness of the gospel'. The gospel is proclaimed in the book of Romans. There is no other Christian gospel. Mormons are the mission field because they reject the gospel of God proclaimed in the Bible. Please study the book of Romans to understand the Christian gospel. I have posted out of love for my neighbors who are Mormons. I am commanded to speak the truth in love. My concscience is clear before God. - BT

 

[Aqualung]

For those who don't think that Mormons are Christians, I guess I'd ask -- then what are they? Buddhists?

That's a silly question. That's like saying, "if Islam isn't Christianity, what is? Buddhism?" It's Islam. If Mormons aren't Christians, then they're just Mormons. They don't have to fit under some other term.

 

[nutshell]

Matthew 7:21:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

That's a great scripture - one that every LDS member on this forum is probably well aware of and believes in.

Dear Mormon friends,

Here is the central issue. Not all who claim to be a Christian will enter the kingdom of God. Are you familiar with the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards called “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”? This is a work of God that was part of the Great Awakening (revival) in America in the 1700’s. This sermon was delivered in the church to the church congregation. Please read the sermon on-line.

I thought we weren't supposed to look outside of the Bible?

Part of the Great Commission (Matthew 28) is to discern who are the mission field. The mission field are all who reject the gospel of God proclaimed in the Bible. The mission field also includes all who have never heard the Gospel of God proclaimed (Romans 10). There is no such thing as the 'fullness of the gospel'. The gospel is proclaimed in the book of Romans. There is no other Christian gospel. Mormons are the mission field because they reject the gospel of God proclaimed in the Bible. Please study the book of Romans to understand the Christian gospel. I have posted out of love for my neighbors who are Mormons. I am commanded to speak the truth in love. My concscience is clear before God. - BT

The gospel in the New Testament is the same as the Book of Mormon and is the same as what the LDS Church teaches. I have studied Romans and every other New Testament book many many times.

 

[bible truth]

That's a silly question. That's like saying, "if Islam isn't Christianity, what is? Buddhism?" It's Islam. If Mormons aren't Christians, then they're just Mormons. They don't have to fit under some other term.

Mormons have always been known as Mormons, because they are dependent on the revelation of Angel Moroni. Why all of a sudden in the 21st century do the Mormons want to loose their identity as Mormons and be known as Christians? Take away the revelation of Angel Moroni, you would have no Mormons. Take away the person of Christ, and you would have no Christians.

I believe I’m finished with my posting on the subject. If the Mormons want to discuss and debate the Christian gospel found in the book of Romans and compare it with the Mormon gospel, I would love to participate in a Thread like that. – BT

 

[SoyLeche]

[critique]you should edit the picture out of your reply so it's not taking up so much screen space.[/critique]

Screen space doesn't cost me much - I did a cost/benefit analysis and the benefit wasn't worth the effort

 

[Aqualung]

Screen space doesn't cost me much - I did a cost/benefit analysis and the benefit wasn't worth the effort

:biglaugh: Fair enough.

 

[SoyLeche]

Heck, I believe in Christ as the Son of god and as Savior as well, but I'm not a Christian, because that's not where I look *first and foremost*.

Thanks. I was trying to remember how I had defined it on another forum a few months ago. That was it.

A Christian holds Christ as the ultimate authority. A Muslim isn't a Christian because Mohamed supersedes Christ. A Mormon is a Christian because everyone else in their belief system is subservient to Christ.

 

[SoyLeche]

Mormons have always been known as Mormons, because they are dependent on the revelation of Angel Moroni. Why all of a sudden in the 21st century do the Mormons want to loose their identity as Mormons and be known as Christians? Take away the revelation of Angel Moroni, you would have no Mormons. Take away the person of Christ, and you would have no Christians.

I believe I’m finished with my posting on the subject. If the Mormons want to discuss and debate the Christian gospel found in the book of Romans and compare it with the Mormon gospel, I would love to participate in a Thread like that. – BT

Mormons have always been members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The term "Mormon" was applied to them, not by them.

 

[Aqualung]

Mormons have always been known as Mormons, because they are dependent on the revelation of Angel Moroni. Why all of a sudden in the 21st century do the Mormons want to loose their identity as Mormons and be known as Christians? Take away the revelation of Angel Moroni, you would have no Mormons.

True, because just like every other divinely ordained Christian church (ie, not one created by men) and just like Christ himself and his apostles stressed numerous times, God's church is a church of prophets and of continued revelation. Without continued revelation, a church cannot possibly claim to be Gods. So, yes, without Moroni, or any other prophet in the history of God's church, from Adam to Gordon B Hinckley, if you take away the prophets, it's no longer God's church and Christ's church, but man's church.

 

[SoyLeche]

Mormons have always been known as Mormons, because they are dependent on the revelation of Angel Moroni. Why all of a sudden in the 21st century do the Mormons want to loose their identity as Mormons and be known as Christians? Take away the revelation of Angel Moroni, you would have no Mormons. Take away the person of Christ, and you would have no Christians.

I believe I’m finished with my posting on the subject. If the Mormons want to discuss and debate the Christian gospel found in the book of Romans and compare it with the Mormon gospel, I would love to participate in a Thread like that. – BT

By the way, when you mentioned that I hadn't answered your questions I obliged and answered them. I am still waiting for the answer to the question I posed to you a few pages back. Please don't leave until you have answered it.

 

[Katzpur]

However, “The Church of Latter Day Saints” follows a different Jesus than the biblical Jesus revealed in the Bible alone (see 2 Cor 11 below).

That, my "friend," is pure nonsense. I believe every word the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. Every last word.

The Mormon Church also believes in a different gospel than what can be found in the Bible alone.

We believe the Bible to be God's word. I already asked you (on a different thread) to show me where the Bible claims to contain 100% of what God wants us to know. I'm still waiting for your answer. When you decide to get back to me on that, could you maybe provide me with some insight as to what happened to Paul's epistle to the Laodiceans. Colossians 4:16 mentions it and advises the Colossians to read it. I'd like to read it as well. Was he not inspired when he wrote it or was it not included in the Bible for some other reason. After you've addressed that, we can move on to some of the other nearly two dozen books and letters mentioned by name in the scriptures that are no longer there.

The Mormon Church worships a different god than the God revealed in the Bible alone.

No, we just worship a different God than is described in the 4th and 5th century creeds. Again, we believe everything the Bible has to say about God.

The Mormon Church preaches a different gospel than the Apostle Paul. The Mormon Church has changed the gospel found in the Scripture alone through revelation from Angel Moroni (see Galatians 1 below).

That's quite a stretch of the imagination. Paul was directing his remarks to the Galations about their apostasy from the truth. He was not prophesying of a event that would happen 1800 years in the future.

When an organization adds to the Bible, they will always create a different faith, different Jesus, different God, and a different Gospel that is proclaimed by biblical revelation alone.

Nobody has added anything to the Bible. Ours begins with Genesis and ends with Revelation. Do you seriously think you are in a position to try to prohibit God from speaking to His prophets? God can say anything He wants to say, to anyone it wants to say it to, and at any time He chooses to speak. If you can find somewhere in the Bible that says He can't, please enlighten me.

Historical Biblical Christianity proclaims that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh.

I can go along with that, as long as I don't have to go along with the idea that He is His own Son or His own Father.

The Scripture also proclaims that Jesus Christ is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.{/quote]Actually, it doesn't. But it does speak of Him as being a part of the Godhead.

The Westminster Confession of Faith – God and the Holy Trinity Chapter 2

3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Umm... The Westminster Confession of Faith? I guess maybe I was wrong. I was thinking that we used the same Bible, but I can't find that book in mine.

Yes, Mormons can call themselves Christians because they follow their own version of Jesus....I’m a Christian because I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who is revealed through the Bible alone.

Don't you mean the Bible and the Westminster Confession of Faith?

The Mormon and Biblical Christians believe in a different Jesus, different gospel, and different God. Both belief systems are mutually exclusive of each other.

You've made your point, BT, but so far, you haven't even started to provide any evidence that your claims are true. I am totally unimpressed.

The LDS Church and Bible Christians cannot both be right. Both Faiths can be wrong. One of the Faiths can be right. However, both cannot be right at the same time.

You're right about that. We can't both be 100% right. Where you're missing the boat is in thinking that one of us must be 100% wrong.

I wish church members of “The Church of the Latter Day Saints” would be honest with everyone.

And I wish you would not accuse us of being liars. Bearing false witness is not becoming to a Christian.

The Book of Mormon is considered to be more than another testament of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it contains the "fulness of the gospel."

The Book of Mormon changes the Jesus and gospel that are found in the Bible alone.

No, it just provides additional support to the teachings contained in the Bible. Its purpose, is to convince both the Jew and the Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.

We can debate which gospel is from God and which one is from an Angel of Light.

I suppose we could, but if this post is indicative of your abilities as a debater, I wouldn't suggest you embarrass yourself any further.

But, please don’t deceive others that you are worshiping the same Jesus as Evangelical Christians. Proclaim the LDS faith and the restoration of the apostate Christian church. But, don’t deceive the readers on this site by blending “Historical Biblical Christianity” with “The Church of Latter Day Saints”.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I cannot proclaim anything other than what I sincerely believe to be true. I can't imagine why you would ask me to compromise my own integrity by saying something I don't believe.

 

[jonny]

2. Mormon Jesus - Created being who is the spirit brother of Lucifer.

Dude - There isn't a single Mormon on the planet who, when asked, would describe Christ like this. That's like me saying "Christian Jesus - Guy with a short temper who overturned the tables in a temple."

 

[jonny]

Mormons have always been known as Mormons, because they are dependent on the revelation of Angel Moroni. Why all of a sudden in the 21st century do the Mormons want to loose their identity as Mormons and be known as Christians? Take away the revelation of Angel Moroni, you would have no Mormons. Take away the person of Christ, and you would have no Christians.

I believe I’m finished with my posting on the subject. If the Mormons want to discuss and debate the Christian gospel found in the book of Romans and compare it with the Mormon gospel, I would love to participate in a Thread like that. – BT

I haven't had a chance to play and am not going to bother reading this thread, but I'd love to chellenge you to a one-on-one debate or general debate on this subject. Start it and I'll join in. I love the Book of Romans.

 

[jonny]

One question that I would ask all Mormons is this: "If I accept you as a Christian, will you accept me as a Mormon?" Would you accept me as a Mormon if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures, baptisms for the dead, the temple endowments, the LDS gospel, would you accept me as a Mormon?

Of course not.

The answer is obviously, you would not. In like manner, when Mormonism denies the Bible and every Christian doctrine do you think that Biblical Christians should accept Mormons as Christians? Again the answer is very obvious, no we will not. You cannot legitimately claim to be Christians when you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches and what a true Christian believes.

This is what i was really interested in; hearing your response to this question, i just put the rest so you could see the background to it, if anyone could sincerely respond, it'd be much appreciated. Thankyou.

Mormonism doesn't deny the Bible. That is the most important premise of your arguement and you didn't even bother to try and defend it. If Mormonism denied the Bible and Christ, they'd be dumb to call themselves Christian. But they don't deny the Bible, and they do accept Christ; therefore, they can call themselves Christian.

Now for the big question of the day. Who determined what a "true Christian" believes? It certainly wasn't God, because those words are not even found in the Bible. Sounds to me like you're following the teachings of men, mingled with scriptures...