Are Muslims right about Paul?

[sojourner]

Actually, there are many things which say it can't be "fulfilled" in the manner you are speaking of. Lets look at the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah:

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jeremiah 31:31-32

It should be noted that the New Covenant was made with the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah" ….Thats it! Gentiles may be grafted into this covenant through conversion and circumcision though.

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my TORAH in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people Jeremiah 31:33

So how did the Torah become "fulfilled" sojourner? Here is another one. Malachi is speaking about the return of the Messiah and the justice he will bring to the earth. But look what he says right after:

2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness (Messiah) arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Look what it says right after!!

4Remember ye the TORAH of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, withthe statutes and judgments.

You're conveniently forgetting about the New Covenant Jesus established. the whole Jeremiah thing isn't cogent.

The whole thing about Jesus was that he was not the Messiah, as recognized by the Jews. Jesus said he fulfilled the Law.

 

[sojourner]

Many Pauline Christians will admit it if you press them on it. They truly don't believe in following ANY of the Law of Moses any more. Paul's case for its abrogation is a complete abrogation, not partial. That means they reject commands like:

-Loving our God with all are heart soul and might
-Loving our neighbors like ourselves
-Honoring our Father and Mothers
-Do not commit Adultry
-Do not steal
-Do not lie

No Christian needs to follow ANY of the law of Moses anymore according to Paul.

That's right, because the Law has been fulfilled in Jesus. And it's especially true for Gentiles.

 

[sojourner]

He even requires both after the Messiah returns!!

9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger (gentile), uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. Eze 44:9

The sanctuary was within the Temple. It doesn't exist anymore. Temple Judaism doesn't exist anymore. From the POV of Xtians, it doesn't need to exist anymore, for the main purpose of the Temple was to make the yearly sacrifice. That's no longer necessary.

 

[sojourner]

I will start another thread on this topic. It has long been held that gentiles are not meant to be circumcised and that James condoned this teaching. I will attempt to prove that this was not the case.

Good luck with that...

 

[sojourner]

I will also prove that James and his followers continued to circumcised gentiles in Asia.

Asia?!

 

[Simplelogic]

The sanctuary was within the Temple. It doesn't exist anymore. Temple Judaism doesn't exist anymore. From the POV of Xtians, it doesn't need to exist anymore, for the main purpose of the Temple was to make the yearly sacrifice. That's no longer necessary.

Yet the Bible tells us it will exist again in the future. This is an undisputed fact. Even sacrifices will resume according the Ezekiel. Yeshua's followers (led by James) continued to offer animal sacrifices after his resurrection. This alone completely destroys the notion of Yeshua fulfilling future animal sacrifices (as Hebrews asserts).

Tell me, why did Yeshua's disciples continue to offer animal sacrifices after his resurrection?? Did Yeshua forget to give them the memo on there abolishment?

 

[Simplelogic]

Asia?!

Yes Asia minor (Turkey).

 

[sojourner]

Yet the Bible tells us it will exist again in the future.

The bible's wrong about a lot of prophecy.

Tell me, why did Yeshua's disciples continue to offer animal sacrifices after his resurrection?? Did Yeshua forget to give them the memo on there abolishment?

Kinda hard to do that when you don't have a Temple...

Yes Asia minor (Turkey).

Oh. Asia minor. That ain't Asia. And it's sort of like saying that Lima, Peru is in America.

 

[outhouse]

The bible's wrong about a lot of prophecy.

Kinda hard to do that when you don't have a Temple...


.

Yep and that eye sore on their temple grounds sadly proves otherwise.

 

[Simplelogic]

The bible's wrong about a lot of prophecy.

Kinda hard to do that when you don't have a Temple...

Oh. Asia minor. That ain't Asia. And it's sort of like saying that Lima, Peru is in America.

-Can you label which prophecies the Bible was wrong about?

-The Temple not standing currently does not bother me. It has been destroyed before and rebuilt. I believe it will rebuilt shortly.

-Regarding Asia---All Bible scholars reference Asia when talking about the Scriptures. It was not called Asia minor back them btw. Just Asia. Sorry I underestimated your understanding of historical geography.

 

[Simplelogic]

Yep and that eye sore on their temple grounds sadly proves otherwise.

That only proves the Temple is not back YET. It obviously does not prove that it will NEVER come back. We will have to wait and see on that one. But I personally believe it will.

 

[outhouse]

-. I believe it will rebuilt shortly.

-.

Have they been saying this for 2000 years in error.

Now only luck fulfills prophecy, which makes the prophecy null and void.

 

[Simplelogic]

a

Have they been saying this for 2000 years in error.

Now only luck fulfills prophecy, which makes the prophecy null and void.

We will see I guess. No use arguing about something we obviously have opposing views on.

 

[Desert Snake]

Resuming of the sacrifices will be interesting. I wonder if animal rights activists will protest.

 

[sojourner]

-Can you label which prophecies the Bible was wrong about?

That Jesus would return before the apostles died is a glaring one -- from the gospel writers, no less.

-The Temple not standing currently does not bother me. It has been destroyed before and rebuilt. I believe it will rebuilt shortly.

Every fundamental group believes that. I'm just not convinced that established Judaism wants to go back to a sacrificial model, even if the Temple grounds were available. Maybe some of our Jewish friends can comment on that?

-Regarding Asia---All Bible scholars reference Asia when talking about the Scriptures.

No. They don't. They reference Turkey or Asia Minor.

Sorry I underestimated your understanding of historical geography.

You didn't.

 

[sojourner]

Resuming of the sacrifices will be interesting. I wonder if animal rights activists will protest.

Not sure that established Judaism would want to revert to that practice.

 

[Desert Snake]

Not sure that established Judaism would want to revert to that practice.

Seems like it would go along with all the other practices?
Anyways, I think if the establishment really wanted to do that they probably could have by now, but either way, I don't know.

 

[sojourner]

Seems like it would go along with all the other practices?
Anyways, I think if the establishment really wanted to do that they probably could have by now, but either way, I don't know.

Sacrifices in Temple Judaism can only happen in the Temple, which is in a specific place. Only if the Muslims vacate the Temple mount can the Temple be rebuilt. Then there's the whole problem of not having the Ark to reside in the Holy of Holies. No one's ever addressed that to my satisfaction. The Ark was integral to the theology of the Temple.

 

[outhouse]

The Ark was integral to the theology of the Temple.

Do you think it actually existed?

Or just a later mythology. I surely do not see it as a literal event.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Many Pauline Christians will admit it if you press them on it. They truly don't believe in following ANY of the Law of Moses any more. Paul's case for its abrogation is a complete abrogation, not partial. That means they reject commands like:

-Loving our God with all are heart soul and might
-Loving our neighbors like ourselves
-Honoring our Father and Mothers
-Do not commit Adultry
-Do not steal
-Do not lie

No Christian needs to follow ANY of the law of Moses anymore according to Paul.

What though of no mention of circumcision of the heart in Exodus?? That was the first law given