Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Are you aware of what a gentile must do to become and Israelite? According to the Torah I mean.
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Are Muslims right about Paul?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Are you aware of what a gentile must do to become and Israelite? According to the Torah I mean.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Many Pauline Christians will admit it if you press them on it. They truly don't believe in following ANY of the Law of Moses any more. Paul's case for its abrogation is a complete abrogation, not partial. That means they reject commands like:
-Loving our God with all are heart soul and might
-Loving our neighbors like ourselves
-Honoring our Father and Mothers
-Do not commit Adultry
-Do not steal
-Do not lie
No Christian needs to follow ANY of the law of Moses anymore according to Paul.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Actually, there are many things which say it can't be "fulfilled" in the manner you are speaking of. Lets look at the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah:But nothing says that it can't be fulfilled through the New.
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jeremiah 31:31-32
It should be noted that the New Covenant was made with the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah" ….Thats it! Gentiles may be grafted into this covenant through conversion and circumcision though.
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my TORAH in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people Jeremiah 31:33
So how did the Torah become "fulfilled" sojourner? Here is another one. Malachi is speaking about the return of the Messiah and the justice he will bring to the earth. But look what he says right after:
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness (Messiah) arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Look what it says right after!!
4Remember ye the TORAH of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, withthe statutes and judgments.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
This is the conundrum for Christianity.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That is a agood point. It is within us now, written on our hearts. It is also the correct interpretation of the law.. such as circumcision of the heart not the skin
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Uh, no it isn't. There isn't anything 'unclear' about adherence to the OT laws in a Christian format, this is one of the clearer subjects in the NT, period.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
We may be seeing this a little differently. The Torah being written on our hearts actually means we keep who WHOLE thing with good intentions. God always commanded us to keep it with our hearts. Its actually written in the Torah!
Imprint these words of mine on your hearts and minds, bind them as a sign on your hands, and let them be a symbol on your foreheads. Deut 11:18
Also, circumcision of the heart does not replace circumcision of the skin. God always commanded both from the beginning:
Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. ... Therefore,
circumcise your hearts and don't be stiff-necked any longer. Deut 10:16
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants,
so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live Deut 30:6
He even requires both after the Messiah returns!!
9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger (gentile), uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. Eze 44:9
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Uh, no it isn't. There isn't anything 'unclear' about adherence to the OT laws in a Christian format, this is one of the clearer subjects in the NT, period.
Care to elaborate?
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Ok, no problem
there is one thing though. Some of the law given in Lev and Deut are not in Ex. This suggests to me that the first-law at Sinai is correct. Deut would then be an addition.
so i don't agree with that. Paul tells us that it is of no avail to be cir of the flesh
I think we do see it somewhat different.
I think there are two Gods here with two covenants. They are slightly different. One is of the flesh and one is not.
They interpreted the law in a carnal way in the OT law.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Yes, we are on opposite sides of the spectrum on this. I actually believe Paul to be a false apostle who Yeshua rejected. I do not believe in two God's but one God and one Torah. I don't believe it was given in a carnal way but in a perfect way.
7The Torah of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
The removal of the flesh always referred to the physical body. It is the heart that represents Source. As such it is that which must be made naked, so that it can return, naked but unashamed.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
All we have to do is looks at which laws are supposed to be adhered to, which aren't necessary. Personally I think it more of an individual thing, but the 'requirements' are not all the Judaism laws, clearly not. So, taken in more literal way, Xians can (some do, it's the 'Xianity' I'm familiar with) differentiate the Torah laws that one is not advised to follow..
So, in essence it is assumed there are legit reasons for Xians to be following some laws and not others...
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your take on Deut. Maybe we can start another thread on the validity of the Law of Moses. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
God always required both. Not one or the other.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Though I agree, heart circumcision should come first.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
At least you put it in a nice way,
I don't. He was embraced and took the law o a higher level, which Christianity in the main, has reduced to rubble.
God is a reflection of his own Self... hence more than one God. But it is still the same One. Hebrews 1 shows more than one God, Daniel also, El of Els.
It is perfect, but misunderstood. They see it to one level, to their God, not he true God. There are different levels of Existence.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
The Torah is an all encompassing law structure. It all exists as one comprehensive set of instructions. Never is the Torah meant to be followed in part. There is no such thing as 10 stand alone commandments. There is also no such thing as "moral commands". The whole Torah is moral and right. Gentiles in ancient Israel could live in Israel and not have to adhere to all of the Torah. They still had to keep Sabbath and numerous other commands though. But if that gentile wanted to become a Hebrew, he had to be circumcised in heart and flesh. Then he could enter the temple and keep the passover.All we have to do is looks at which laws are supposed to be adhered to, which aren't necessary. Personally I think it more of an individual thing, but the 'requirements' are not all the Judaism laws, clearly not. So, taken in more literal way, Xians can (some do, it's the 'Xianity' I'm familiar with) differentiate the Torah laws that one is not advised to follow..
So, in essence it is assumed there are legit reasons for Xians to be following some laws and not others...
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I don't think that circumcision of the heart is mentioned in Exodus? Correct me if I am wrong.
..... Battery low now, gotta go
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Doesn't matter. Gentiles weren't becoming Israelite. And James, after the Council of Jerusalem, said they didn't have to in order to be members of the church. It's in the bible.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I will start another thread on this topic. It has long been held that gentiles are not meant to be circumcised and that James condoned this teaching. I will attempt to prove that this was not the case. The issue at hand during the Jerusalem council was whether gentiles NEEDED TO BE CIRCUMCISED TO OBTAIN SALVATION. I will also prove that James and his followers continued to circumcised gentiles in Asia.